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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

obligé solidairement

English translation:

Jointly (and severally) liable/responsible

    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2018-04-13 16:54:08 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Apr 10, 2018 15:39
6 yrs ago
9 viewers *
French term

obligé solidairement

French to English Law/Patents Cinema, Film, TV, Drama
« Le Producteur reste obligé solidairement à l’égard du Réalisateur pour ce qui est des prestations prévues par ce contrat. »
Proposed translations (English)
4 -2 Jointly (and severally) liable/responsible
5 jointly responsible / joint responsibility

Discussion

Daryo Apr 16, 2018:
Legal vocabulary makes everything complicated NO IT DOESN'T - each term or combinations of terms has its own precise meaning - as it is meant to.

Chinese is also very complicated for me ...
Daryo Apr 12, 2018:
the other party that is "jointly" liable/responsible must be mentioned somewhere else in this contract, possibly just in the previous sentence, so it's left implied in this sentence.

Also it's not very clear what are these "prestations" - who exactly is supposed to provide these services. More precisely it's not very clear when you only have the limited extract given by the Asker ...

The whole contract 99.9% makes perfect sense - nevertheless limited quotes can sound bizarre ...
Tony M Apr 11, 2018:
@ Asker It's not really a problem of legal vocabulary — though it is sometimes the drafting that makes things complicated; that's what makes legal translation such a highly specialized field — and a minefield for the unwary!

It would help if, instead of giving us snippets of your text, you just gave us the complete section.

On the face of it, your text seems to be saying that the Producer has a responsibility TOWARDS (à l’égard de) the Director to do something; so far, that could make perfect sense.

But as I keep on saying, the odd thing is the use of 'solidairement' with a singular party — which tends to be confirmed by the singular agreement on 'obligé'. Now I am not in any way a legal expert, but I don't understand in at least everyday language terms how one person can be 'jointly' liable or responsible for anything? Normally, the use of 'joint' implies a minimum of 2 parties!

This curious usage is why I keep insisting on more context, to see if we can glean further clues on this point. Is there any mention anywhere of someone with whom the 'Producer' might be said to be acting 'jointly'?

If it were 'acting jointly with the Director', I find "à l’égard de..." rather curious?
Elodie Katan (X) (asker) Apr 11, 2018:
Along with the director? Legal vocabulary makes everything complicated. ;)
Tony M Apr 11, 2018:
Rule of thumb: sum of money = liable
action = responsible

I'm more worried here how a Producer (one person?) can be 'jointly' anything...?
Elodie Katan (X) (asker) Apr 11, 2018:
Le contexte, c'est que le producteur du film peut transférer les droits et obligations du contrat à un tiers mais il reste obligé solidairement envers le réalisateur.
Je n'utilise pas le mot «severally» mais maintenant je ne sais plus si je dois utiliser «liable» ou «responsible.» Je pencherais plutôt vers «liable» mais j'aimerais confirmation.
Tony M Apr 10, 2018:
@ Asker It is unclear from the tiny snippet of context you have given us exactly who is liabale to whom for what...? I think this is vitally important to make sure you don't make a potentially serious translation error here!
Daryo Apr 10, 2018:
in legal documents ONE single word can make the difference between winning or losing a litigation (and in some cases sinking the business!).

Proposed translations

-2
16 mins
Selected

Jointly (and severally) liable/responsible

Joint and several liability. Under joint and several liability or all sums, a claimant may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable and it becomes the responsibility of the defendants to sort out their respective proportions of liability, payment, action and causes.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : "severally" is not part of this story https://aurelienbamde.com/2017/09/12/lobligation-conjointe-o... in a legal document you can't have "optional additions" that mean s.o. totally else - can't be black and white at the same time.
2 hrs
that's the reason I was put it on the bracket
disagree Tony M : 'jointly and severally' is a specific, quite different concept, not at all applicable here.
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
3 hrs

jointly responsible / joint responsibility

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/difference-between-jointly-li...

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Note added at 3 hrs (2018-04-10 18:49:16 GMT)
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just because "jointly" often appears together with "severally" DOESN'T mean they are some kind of Siamese twins who must always be together. "Jointly responsible" and "severally responsible" are two different concepts.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 13 hrs (2018-04-12 05:33:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Le contexte, c'est que le producteur du film peut transférer les droits et obligations du contrat à un tiers mais il reste obligé solidairement envers le réalisateur.

that makes it clearer:

Producer is jointly liable with the Third party that has replaced the Producer in this contract for payments to be made to the Director.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2018-04-16 13:57:18 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

but they ARE NOT "severally" liable

If the New and the Old Producer had each the obligation to pay a defined fraction of the total cost THEN they would have been "severally" liable [each for their own share of total obligation]- but that's not the case;

HERE the "New" producer is the only one that has a primary obligation to pay, the old producer is only a kind of guarantee, he has only "joint" liability" with the new Producer.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Though the context still worries me... is the Producer jointly liable with the Director for something to someone else? The way it reads, the Producer (could it mean 'production company?) is single-handedly jointly liable to the Director...
3 hrs
Thanks!
disagree writeaway : responsible or liable? there is no way to be 100% certain without more context
3 hrs
Can't see the crucial difference; the key point being you can't just put "Jointly and severally" as a reflex - you have to take into account "nuances" that in practical terms can mean the difference between getting off scot-free or paying for everything!
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