Jan 22, 2010 15:04
14 yrs ago
English term

Indian history/etymology question

Non-PRO English Art/Literary Textiles / Clothing / Fashion
Hi, I'm looking for a verification of a historical term (Indias/Indies) from someone who has studied Indian history and is preferably Indian, or at least a native English speaker. This is for a book about Indian textiles.
According to the editor: In French, "Indes" refers to pre-Indépendance (1947), when the country was divided into various kingdoms. "Inde" is the name after unification.

Translation: Indias or Indies?
Related question: Is this a European/French construction or did India really refer to itself as the Indias/Indies? For me, the Indies are the historical term used to define the islands in SE Asia. But I am no expert.

Example sentence from text: They are the last fireworks of the Indias/Indies, a country which, in those days, wrote its name in the plural to emphasize the diversity of cultures...

Thanks!!!
Responses
5 +3 see...

Discussion

Chris Pitts (asker) Jan 27, 2010:
Best Answer I received this answer from a prof., which was the most helpful and contained more information than is simply found by looking on wikipedia. I'm posting it here for future reference.
"I think this use of India in the plural is a European (spec. French) construction--I do not recollect any references in Indian sources to their territory/country (which really was understood as a unit only b/c of the British Empire's drawing of boundaries) in the plural ("Indias") unless they were specifically invoking the plurality of cultures/ languages/ regions, etc. And I do not know of Indian sources that refer to the area as the 'Indies'. It seems that this all has to do with how the French perceived of and technically referred to the region after they ceded power to the British East India Company, and prior to India's independence. Also, I am thinking it is a specifically French construction because certainly the British saw it as a unified 'empire', the "Indian Empire"-- perhaps the French continued to refer to it in the plural out of imperial competitiveness with the British or just a grouping together of all exotic Asian lands."
Chris Pitts (asker) Jan 22, 2010:
Thanks. That concurs with my understanding of the "Indies."
However, the French publisher asserts that: "Indes(french plural)" refers to pre-Indépendance (1947), when the country was divided into various kingdoms. "India" is the name after unification.
Does anyone know if the term "Indias" was ever used in English? Or is this a name change that only happened in French?
Chris Pitts (asker) Jan 22, 2010:
Thanks, that is helpful context, but it is not exactly what I'm looking for. What I want to know is if India was ever referred to as the "Indies" or "Indias" in the plural, during the time of British colonization. If so, which plural (Indies or Indias) and who used this name? For sure the French and the Spanish use it, but did anyone else?

Responses

+3
19 mins
Selected

see...

The name India (ભારત) may refer to either the region of Greater India (the Indian subcontinent), or to the contemporary Republic of India contained therein. The term is derived from the name of the Sindhu (Indus River) and has been in use in Greek since Herodotus (4th century BC). The term appears in Old English in the 9th century, and again in Modern English since the 17th century.

The Republic of India has three principal short names, in both official and popular English usage, each of which is historically significant. All three originally designated a single entity comprising all the modern nations of the Indian subcontinent. These names are India, Bharat and Hindustan. The first Article of the Constitution of India states that "India, that is Bharat, shall be a union of states." Thus, India and Bharat are equally official short names for the Republic of India, while "Hindustan" is still widely used as an alternative name when Indians speak amongst themselves. "Hindustan" is also used in historical contexts (especially British India). Indians commonly refer to their country as Bharat, Hindustan or India depending on the context and language of conversation.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 λεπτά (2010-01-22 15:31:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The Indies is a term that has been used to describe the lands of South and Southeast Asia,[1] occupying all of the present Indian Union, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, the Maldives and also Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Brunei, Singapore, the Philippines, East Timor, Malaysia and Indonesia. In a more restricted sense, the Indies can be used to refer to the islands of Southeastern Asia, especially the Malay Archipelago.[1][2] The name "Indies" is derived from the river Indus in modern-day Pakistan.

Dutch-held colonies in the area were known as the Dutch East Indies before Indonesian independence, while Spanish-held colonies were known as the Spanish East Indies before the Philippines' independence. The East Indies may also include Indochina, the Philippine Islands, Brunei, Singapore and East Timor. It does not, however, include western New Guinea (West Papua), which is part of Melanesia.

The inhabitants of the East Indies are sometimes called East Indians, distinguishing them both from inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent, the Caribbean (which is also called the "West Indies"), and from the indigenous peoples of the Americas who are often called "American Indians." (In North America however, the term East Indian may be used for people originating in India living in North America.) However, the peoples of the East Indies comprise a wide variety of cultural diversity, and the inhabitants do not consider themselves as belonging to a single ethnic group. Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam are the most popular religions throughout the region, while Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism and various other traditional beliefs and practices are also prominent in some areas. The major languages in this area draw from a wide variety of language families, and should not be confused with the term Indic, which refers only to a group of Indo-European languages from South Asia.

The extensive East Indies are subdivided into two sections (from a European perspective), archaically called Hither India and Further India. The first is the former British India, the second is modern Southeast Asia or the ASEAN Bloc.

Regions of the East Indies are sometimes known by the colonial empire they once belonged to, hence, British East Indies refers to Malaysia, the Dutch East Indies means Indonesia, and Spanish East Indies means the Philippines.

Historically, the king of Abyssinia (modern Ethiopia) was identified with "Prester John of the Indies", since that part of the world was imagined to be one of "Three Indias".
Peer comment(s):

agree Kim Metzger : The word "India" is derived from the Indus River. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_River
7 mins
tanks
agree PRAKASH SHARMA : I am sure that Indias was never used. 'Indies' was the term used once. But post independence 'India' was accepted. Same name is written as 'Bharat' and 'Hindustan' locally in devanagri script. Script used by Feridis is 'Gujrati' not devanagri @ one place.
7 hrs
thanks
agree Paula Vaz-Carreiro
7 days
obrigado
Something went wrong...
1 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for your help. This was useful context but did not specifically answer the question asked."

Reference comments

6 hrs
Reference:

Use of the term "Indies"

These links should give you more material to go on. Indian History is really quite a complex subject!
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search