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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

They will eventually THEMSELVES become managers

English answer:

They'll eventually themselves become managers

Added to glossary by acetran
Oct 11, 2014 04:08
9 yrs ago
English term

They will eventually THEMSELVES become managers

English Other Other ....
Dear Colleagues

I am dubious on the correct structure of the following sentence:

They will eventually THEMSELVES become managers. Is "themselves" in an appropriate order, if no please grammatically correct.

Warm Regards
Responses
4 +3 Statement is correct
3 +3 They themselves will eventually become managers.
4 they will eventually become managers themselves
References
eventually themselves
ref.
Change log

Oct 22, 2014 10:49: acetran Created KOG entry

Oct 22, 2014 10:49: acetran changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1818886">acetran's</a> old entry - "They will eventually THEMSELVES become managers "" to ""Statement is correct""

Oct 22, 2014 10:49: acetran changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1818886">acetran's</a> old entry - "They will eventually THEMSELVES become managers "" to ""They will eventually themselves become managers ""

Feb 4, 2015 15:32: acetran changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1818886">acetran's</a> old entry - "They will eventually THEMSELVES become managers "" to ""They will eventually themselves become managers ""

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (2): Yvonne Gallagher, Rachel Fell

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Discussion

Komeil Zamani Babgohari (asker) Oct 12, 2014:
Dear All I really appreciate your kind and fruitful shares. Now, here I am with a bunch of texts to admit if it is true or I should consider it as an old-fashioned structure.
What I am certain is that English is flexible in expressing in variety of ways specially for spoken language. However, the story is a little bit tough and complicated with written English. One has to be enough educated to use the correct form of sentences with appropriate senses. Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing what is in store for me!
Rachel Fell Oct 11, 2014:
Yes, but "I - myself - will do it" sounds a bit stilted but has a different slant on it from "I'll do it myself", which (the latter) can read/understood in a number of ways.
Tony M Oct 11, 2014:
@ Asker In answer to your discussion post @10:01, my take on this would be that "I will myself do it" sounds so stilted and old-fashioned as to be almost considered wrong in modern usage, as Tina has said; we would MUCH more naturally say "I'll do it myself".
David Moore (X) Oct 11, 2014:
They will... themselves eventually become managers.

Nothing wrong with this construction either.

As an ENS, the sentence posted just sounds a little bit odd.
Tina Vonhof (X) Oct 11, 2014:
@ Asker "I will myself do it." is wrong but "I myself will do it" can be used if you want to put more more emphasis on "I" (I myself, not other people). But you are right in that this sentence structure is not common, it is used only in exceptional cases for emphasis.
Richard Sanders Oct 11, 2014:
Agree It is reflexive; in this case they should reflect on what they will become in the future.
Komeil Zamani Babgohari (asker) Oct 11, 2014:
How if we use "I will myself do it." Is it correct? I don't think so.
It has nothing to do with eventually. Just consider this will/can/may/shall + reflexive or intensive pronouns + main verb.
Is it a true structure?
Thanks in advance for your attention.
DLyons Oct 11, 2014:
The issue is the placement of the adverb "eventually". "They themselves" can be considered as a unit, an intensive form of they and, as such, it likes to stay together.

One sees "They verb themselves" e.g. "They call/pride/wash themselves" etc but that's different, it's not an interposed verb, it's a different (reflexive) construction.

"They adverb themselves" I've finally woken up for the day - it seems literary, perhaps a little dated, but here are some perfectly good examples. From Adorno "As splinters, derelict and abandoned, they finally themselves become expression". From The Book of History: South and Central America " the descendants of Columbus proved so utterly unfit for the duties imposed upon them by their claims that they finally themselves renounced their acknowledged documentary rights..." From The Analytical Concordance to the New Revised Standard Version of the New Testament, "and they will finally themselves be consumed, and be a reproach in the land".

https://www.google.ie/search?num=100&tbm=bks&q="They wi...
Bernhard Sulzer Oct 11, 2014:
@Komeil See my reference below.
Komeil Zamani Babgohari (asker) Oct 11, 2014:
Isn't this type of structure more common in spoken English?
In formal texture is allowed?
Bernhard Sulzer Oct 11, 2014:
emphasis It refers to something earlier in the text. Example: Someone says: "These trainees are really angry at the managers." Then someone says: "They (the trainees) will understand their managers one day (in the future). (Because) They will eventually themselves become managers."
But "themselves" could also be at the end of the sentence (probably more common).

Responses

+3
5 mins
Selected

Statement is correct

It can be said for say supervisors who spend 10 years in a company that "they will eventually themselves become managers." So, the supervisors become managers in 10 years.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2014-10-11 05:02:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

However, more common usage would be "they will eventually become managers themselves." Bit the above is correct too.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-10-11 05:09:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Themselves is an Intensive Pronouns

It is used to emphasize a noun or pronoun. Some others aree: myself, himself, herself, themselves, itself, yourself, yourselves, and ourselves.
Please see this example: “He himself is his worst critic. This is similar to the sentence you have put.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-10-11 05:11:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Intensive Pronouns are called Reflexive Pronouns in UK English.
Note from asker:
Thanks. What kind of grammatical structure is it?
@Dlyons You can say that again. That's what I feel!
Peer comment(s):
agree Jack Doughty
1 hr
Thanks!
agree Shera Lyn Parpia
1 hr
Thanks!
agree DLyons : See discussion.
2 hrs
;)
neutral writeaway : It's not about whether the statement is right or wrong. Grammatically the word order isn't right. and it does NOT mean they will become managers in 10 years.
4 hrs
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : with writeaway
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank You Very Much"
+3
2 hrs

They themselves will eventually become managers.

Or, less emphatically, "They will eventually become managers themselves".

Jeremiah "They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings;"
Note from asker:
Thanks for your comment. I'm with Tony, Gallagy and Writeaway!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I don't see 'themselves' really/merely as an intensifier here, I think it almost has the more 'reflexive' meaning you mention in your discussion post.
32 mins
Thanks Tony. That's also possible.
agree writeaway : it's a reflexive pronoun and is used for emphasis. the word order in Asker's sentence is not great, that's all.
2 hrs
Thanks writeaway.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : Both OK but think 2nd "They will eventually become managers themselves" more "common"//Don't agree that 1st is more "stilted/old-fashioned"
3 hrs
Thanks Gallagy.
agree Tina Vonhof (X) : Also with writeaway: it puts more emphasis on 'they'.
8 hrs
Thanks Tina.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

they will eventually become managers themselves

Since no-one seems to have suggested this version, I'm going to throw it into the melting pot for discussion.

Personally, this is what instincitvely came to my mind when I read this the first time, and I think it reads / sounds most naturally in modern EN usage.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 heures (2014-10-11 09:31:49 GMT)
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@ Asker

I see it the other way round — purely a matter of 'feeling', but to me, tagging the 'themselves' on the end sounds perhaps more like a verbal thing, you know, almost like an afterthought, whereas bringing 'themselves' forward in the sentence sounds to me slightly more formal / stilited / old-fashioned.

But I hasten to emphasize this was simply my instinctive gut feeling, which may not necessarily be shared by other native speakers!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 heures (2014-10-11 09:33:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To me, I see 'themselves' as being more closely linked to 'managers' than to 'they', in terms of the ideas:

"One day, they will be managers themselves, then they'll understand!"

"Managers themselves, they realize why the decision had to be taken."
Note from asker:
Thanks for your comment. This is what I think to be true. I would say "they will themselves become manager" is more spoken like. What do you think?
That makes two of us!
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : DLyons already suggested this. /imo, personally, in their own right, etc. would deserve a headword suggestion. this is just reshuffling the word order.
2 hrs
Sorry, read everything quickly and didn't see that; I think it justifies a headword suggestion.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : with wrtieaway. And don't agree that anything wrong with "They themselves will eventually become managers." Anyway, it's non-Pro
2 hrs
? I din't say there was anything wrong with THAT one (though I was always taught 'I myself' was poor style), but with 'they will themselves...' — maybe not wrong (though W/A suggests it is), just feels less 'user-friendly' ;-)
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

eventually themselves

In your text, the reason for "themselves" being where it is is to tie it to "eventually" and achieve a particular meaning.

It gives it a special meaning that is in a way similar to:

There is no escaping the fact that they themselves will become managers.

It's different from:
They themselves will become ...
here the focus is on they are the ones that will eventually become managers
and
They will eventually become managers themselves.
This is the least emphatic statement. It's like saying.
At some point (= eventually), they will become managers also.

Similar example:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2460035

Although an apple may appear red, its atoms are not themselves red. (from Korean matriculation)

its atoms are not themselves red (2) ..., its atoms themselves are not red (3) ..., its atoms are not red themselves.
----------------------------

The explanation on this site goes in the right direction but isn't quite correct. It does have to do with meaning!! So the different versions constitute semantic changes.

Here's the explanation from that same site:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2460035
...To tell you the truth, I like the first version best. By placing "not" in front of "themselves", the writer makes it very easy to understand that those atoms are not red. The other versions don't seem quite as clear or natural to me although they mean the same thing.

---------------

Now please wait for confirmation/critique from a NS of English
Note from asker:
Thank you very much!
Thank you very much for your references. Very useful, however I do agree with Writeaway.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral writeaway : eventually themselves isn't very natural sounding word order. otherwise there is nothing 'special' about this. it's just a reflexive pronoun and it adds emphasis.
4 hrs
it was placed there for emphasis and I see it as a slight semantic shift. BUt you are the NS. :) It's not the way it's usually used, but it's not impossible.
Something went wrong...
6 hrs
Reference:

ref.

(Mr Brown) Given that there is no proposal to join the euro this Parliament, and given that there is no proposal to join without there being a referendum, I think that the British people will be assured that any decision on the euro will be one that they will eventually themselves make.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm19989...
Note from asker:
Thank you very much for your comment. I do agree with DLyons. This is what I need to know; whether it meets the WRITTEN STANDARDS or what!
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree DLyons : Presumably a transcription of spontaneous speech. That though often does not meet written standards.
5 hrs
No, though I think English is flexible enough for it to be expressed in more than one way, e.g.They will eventually THEMSELVES and They will THEMSELVES eventually, etc.//No, not very good for written English.
Something went wrong...
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