Dylan Edwards (asker) Feb 20, 2009:

No easy answer - Thanks, all, for the various insights given. It seems to me that 'technocratic' tends to be used in a loose, broad sense that covers both 'technokratický and 'mocensko-technologický'. From the answers here, I gather that 'mocensko-technologický' may be used in a precise way by writers in the fields of philosophy and social sciences, and may be used more vaguely elsewhere.

Pavel Blann Feb 16, 2009:

it's good we've got different views on this so dylan can make up his mind.

very few politicians are thinkers but they certainly know how to speak, how to tell the public what they like to hear, what sounds good. "mocensko-technologický" seems to be one of those catchy terms that no one knows precisely what it means but anyone can attach his/her multitude of meanings to it.

again: "mocensko" is an attributive adjective of "power" and "technologický" is an adjective of "technology". the noun is "2nd EU" (pls. note the difference from just "EU"). so topolánek is probably talking about "the big brother EU" danger lurking behind our current EU.

anyway, the more answers the better since they all provide a small piece to the puzzle :)

Jana Bedanova Feb 16, 2009:

becomin a bit tiring (maybe a topic on the forum?) <P>Firstly, I think that the meaning of technocracy from the content point of view is not that ambiguous. Keller’s definition is valid, but it is mainly functional, it doesn’t really tell us anything about the term. If there’s any doubt about the meaning then: <A href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=cs&q=define: technocracy&lr=... target=_blank><U>Technocracy</U></A></P><BR>Now back to the “EU authorities”…there is a commonplace assumption that something like that exists…the problem is that there is no centralized power of any authority. EU authority is an abstract term with no people behind it. Usage of this term seriously simplifies the whole EU decision-making process. The fact is that the so-called EU authorities are in the final instance the ministers of our government which we indirectly elected. Another issue is the whole functioning of COREPER and its various groups and sections. And that’s where the technocracy, ie. rule of technocrats, comes into play.<BR>I highly recommend this website: <A href="http://europa.eu/institutions/inst/council/index_en.htm"... target=_blank><U>Council of the EU</U></A> (particularly the COREPER section).<P><BR>And this is for Pavel in particular:<BR>Moc technologie, technologická moc, a technologie moci are quite different terms.<BR><B>Technologie moci</B>, i.e., technology(ies) of power (or let’s replace it with “technologies of political control“) is a terminus technicus of the post-structuralist (primarily Foucaldian) cultural theory. Like technology of pretty much anything (or technologies for that matter) [especially related to social/political/cultural theory terms].<BR>This is the reason why I disagreed with the translation of “mocensko-technologický“ as „technologies of political control“. It's incorrect and misleading.<BR><P><BR>However, I admit that I do not have a magic formula to solve this tricky translation issue as it definitely falls back on the interpretation of the term and I'm sure we come up with as many of them as there are of us on this forum.<BR><P><BR>All from me. Believe I’ll really shut up now :-) Howgh. ;-)</P>

Pavel Blann Feb 15, 2009:

re: hm I think it's a matter of how you understand and apply both of these terms.

jan keller's two main characteristics of technocracy: 1. thinking only short-term, typically one election period 2. quantifying _everything_, even matters that can't be quantified

so I can't see the connection of technocracy and power/technology. the whole EU structure is perfectly legal but that doesn't mean it cannot be misused:

examples may include imposing regulated prices for mobile telecom services, forcing microsoft to manufacture and sell products no one is buying, trying to regulate the content of internet, "legal" hacking of EU citizens by the authorities, etc.

Jana Bedanova Feb 15, 2009:

hm I think this is a matter of how you personally see/understand the way the EU institutions work. As the citizens of any MS we decided to give vote/delegate decision-making process on our representatives (ministers at the level of every dpt.mental meeting of the Council of the EU). They delegate it on a handful of experts who delegate it on a handful of experts who prepare the reports for them...Then they vote on it..And only in the final stage does it get back to the original minister). I don't thinkany misuse of power (let alone technology) is involved here, because in the end we did freely chose the representatives in the very beginning and everything was and is perfectly legal. I believe that ppl who work for the Council of the EU, i.e., for the ministers of the MS believe that they are doing the right thing for their states, however, at the level of common citizens, ie. us, we completely lose the track of what is going on.

Pavel Blann Feb 15, 2009:

as I noted below "technokratický" is more pejorative than "mocensko-technologický", i.e. both terms are negative. still, there is a big difference, pls. see the 2nd link in my answer below. a misuse of power and technologies in order to control EU politics is something else than technocracy

Jana Bedanova Feb 15, 2009:

ok Pavel If you think so. Nevertheless, he's speaking about the bureaucratic and soulless EU. Which is meant to be negative. Saying at the same time that the EU has power and technology at its disposal (quite positive thing in the world of realistic politics) would be kind of contradictory don't you think? Many people do complain that the EU is "technocratic", i.e., ruled by few experts in certain matters that no-one else can't see into...therefore the EU decisions are detached from the people (because we're experiencing the rule of technocracts, not the rule of power and technology - I wish there was more of it, so that the EU actually COULD compete with other powerblocs like China or the US. The fact is that we're still far from having the real [competitive] power or technologies [at least in military terms])

Pavel Blann Feb 15, 2009:

hold it I think mr. topolanek (as well as other top politicians) is well aware of the difference between the two terms: he would use "technokratický" if he meant "technocratic".

Jana Bedanova Feb 15, 2009:

technokratický Dylan, in this sense I think he meant "technocratic", but just uttered a complete non-sense to sound even more sophisticated. I would translate it as "technocratic" and it'll do Topolanek a big favour. I think it works and doesn't matter it's pejorative, because it's the intention to contrast something "bad" with something better

Pavel Blann Feb 15, 2009:

two notes 1. imho, "technokratický" is more pejorative than "mocensko-technologický"

2. the example implies the "2nd EU" has got too much bureaucracy, power, and technology at its disposal to enforce/control its policies/influence regardles of the basic values of humanism, e.g.

Dylan Edwards (asker) Feb 15, 2009:

Here's an example from Topolánek: 'Mluví se i o druhé Evropské unii: byrokratické, mocensko-technologické a odduchovělé.' He certainly seems to be linking the idea of 'mocensko-technologický' closely with 'bureaucratic' and 'soulless'.

Dylan Edwards (asker) Feb 15, 2009:

'technokratický' and 'mocensko-technologický' - are they both pejorative? Is one more pejorative than the other?

Pavel Blann Feb 15, 2009:

to jana: let's wait till dylan provides more information

Pavel Blann Feb 15, 2009:

is there more context/intended usage?

Jana Bedanova Feb 15, 2009:

To Pavel: You are right there that we do need the context, however, "technology of something" clearly evokes a meaning of that "something" being produced by certain mechanisms. E.g. de Lauretis' book called "Technologies of Gender"... on how a category/idea of gender is created (or partially created) & sustained by social institutions such as cinema (which is one of the technologies here, one of the "technologies of gender")

Jana Bedanova Feb 15, 2009:

forgot actually mocensko-technologický konflikt might be even a conflict where technology plays a major role... I believe that you can use it in many ways "mocensko-politický...something", while technokratický is almost always referring to some form of rule/government

Jana Bedanova Feb 15, 2009:

Not really Hi Dylan, definitely not (a synonym). It's not a very common idiom, usually we say "mocensko-politický" e.g. mocensko-politický konflikt (which would be something fought over political power), while as I understand it mocensko-technologický konflikt would be something fought over power over technologies (elthough its implicitly political anyway).

But technokratický exists in Czech and like in English it referes to the rule of technocracy....