Aug 18, 2004 12:34
19 yrs ago
Swedish term
Radu Stefan (X)
r s
Non-PRO
Swedish
Other
Linguistics
Hi everybody. I hope it's ok to ask this question as a KudoZ question.
Can someone (especially from Stockholm area) help me with a matter regarding the swedish pronunciation.
For some time I have a problem and I can't find anywhere some good information about it.
It's about that specific feature from Stockholm area. "S" preceded by "r", in two distinct words. Is this "s" always pronounced like a "sh"-sound? I've read somewhere that in this sentence: "vi får se", "s" is pronounced normally and not like a "sh"-shound.
My question is the following: can anyone give me a rule, when "s" preceded by "r", is not pronounced like a "sh"-sound?
Thank you a lot!
Can someone (especially from Stockholm area) help me with a matter regarding the swedish pronunciation.
For some time I have a problem and I can't find anywhere some good information about it.
It's about that specific feature from Stockholm area. "S" preceded by "r", in two distinct words. Is this "s" always pronounced like a "sh"-sound? I've read somewhere that in this sentence: "vi får se", "s" is pronounced normally and not like a "sh"-shound.
My question is the following: can anyone give me a rule, when "s" preceded by "r", is not pronounced like a "sh"-sound?
Thank you a lot!
Responses
| 4 +2 | sh |
Erik Hansson
|
| 5 +1 | (retroflex consonants/assimilations) |
Mario Marcolin
|
| 4 | yes |
cologne
|
Responses
+2
12 mins
Selected
sh
Hello Raducu,
Although I don't speak the Stockholm dialect, I think that any Swede could help you with this question, as this dialect is the predominant one you very often hear on the radio, on TV etc (although many other dialects are also represented).
I can't think of one single case where r+s is not spoken out as "sh", no matter if you speak about two words, where the first word ends up with r and the second starts with s, or if you have this combination within one single word. This would be one of the few pronunciation rules in Swedish without any exceptions ;-)
Maybe we should ask somebody who has learnt Swedish at school, I mean who doesn't have Swedish as his/her native language...
Best regards,
Erik
Although I don't speak the Stockholm dialect, I think that any Swede could help you with this question, as this dialect is the predominant one you very often hear on the radio, on TV etc (although many other dialects are also represented).
I can't think of one single case where r+s is not spoken out as "sh", no matter if you speak about two words, where the first word ends up with r and the second starts with s, or if you have this combination within one single word. This would be one of the few pronunciation rules in Swedish without any exceptions ;-)
Maybe we should ask somebody who has learnt Swedish at school, I mean who doesn't have Swedish as his/her native language...
Best regards,
Erik
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
ohemulen
: Swedish in Finland is pronounced more literally, so your case would work there. As Eric, I cannot think of a single case in Swedish Swedish where this would be the case.
17 mins
|
|
Tack!
|
|
| agree |
EKM
: In my dialect (hälsingemål), 3 hours north of Stockholm, "rs" is the retroflex. As you write, the sound is NOT the same as in English "she", but a retroflex sound which resembles languages spoken in India.
12 hrs
|
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Tack!
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you all for your help. It seems though that nobody wanted to answer to the related question (I hope the sentence holds no curse): In "vi får se" is "s" pronounced like "sh"?"
16 mins
yes
at the end of a word, when r preceeds s, as in 'annars', s is pronounced like 'sh'
As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the Stockholm dialect.
I'll look for some references
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Note added at 19 mins (2004-08-18 12:54:03 GMT)
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rs is pronounced in Swedish like the English she, e.g. mars, kurs, börs, årslön, Forsmark.
http://www.nordisk-sprakrad.no/folder_att_forstaa/folder_8.h...
learn about the rules here, unfortunately I think this link only exists in Swedish
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Note added at 21 mins (2004-08-18 12:56:52 GMT)
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http://www.photo.net/sweden/pronunciation
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Note added at 1 hr 55 mins (2004-08-18 14:30:36 GMT)
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I agree with the link but I only think this rule rs = sh applies when the two letters appear in one word.
As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the Stockholm dialect.
I'll look for some references
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Note added at 19 mins (2004-08-18 12:54:03 GMT)
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rs is pronounced in Swedish like the English she, e.g. mars, kurs, börs, årslön, Forsmark.
http://www.nordisk-sprakrad.no/folder_att_forstaa/folder_8.h...
learn about the rules here, unfortunately I think this link only exists in Swedish
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2004-08-18 12:56:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.photo.net/sweden/pronunciation
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Note added at 1 hr 55 mins (2004-08-18 14:30:36 GMT)
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I agree with the link but I only think this rule rs = sh applies when the two letters appear in one word.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Erik Hansson
: "rs is pronounced in Swedish like the English she" - not in Skåne and many other places in the south.
6 mins
|
|
but in the Stockholm area it is. And 'rikssvenska' also. I think Skanska may be an exception.
|
+1
2 hrs
Mario Marcolin
Sweden
Sweden
Native in Swedish
&
Swedish
Sweden
Words are forever...
Native in: Swedish 
, English
Works in: English to Swedish, German to Swedish, French to Swedish, and 4 more.
(retroflex consonants/assimilations)
This also occurs in a varying degree with r+d, r+n and r+t
Phonetically they are retroflex assimilations (sometimes "supradentals). Common feature of mid/north Swedish and Norwegian, and many Indian languages...
"Retroflex consonants are consonants articulated with the tip of the tongue curled up and back so the bottom of the tip touches the roof of the mouth. Retroflex consonants are common in the Indo-Aryan languages and the Dravidian languages; and can also be found in languages such as Mandarin Chinese, Javanese, Vietnamese, Swedish, Norwegian and some languages of Southern Italy and Sardinia."
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Note added at 2 hrs 33 mins (2004-08-18 15:08:28 GMT)
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http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/r/retroflex-consonant.htm
and also
http://eric.dane.free.fr/lingua/ipa/ipa.php
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Note added at 18 hrs 19 mins (2004-08-19 06:54:20 GMT)
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Comment on assimilation between words
http://francisstrand.blogspot.com/2002_02_01_francisstrand_a... \" and I\'ve never figured out any kind of rule for when they do the sh and when they don\'t\"
There is nor rule - or rather, this is an issue of individual speaking habits and sentence stress...
PS
There are at least two areas in Sweden where /r/ is SUPPRESSED before /s/: in the Gothenburg area on the West Coast and in Blekinge in the Southeast.
Lars > La:s
Phonetically they are retroflex assimilations (sometimes "supradentals). Common feature of mid/north Swedish and Norwegian, and many Indian languages...
"Retroflex consonants are consonants articulated with the tip of the tongue curled up and back so the bottom of the tip touches the roof of the mouth. Retroflex consonants are common in the Indo-Aryan languages and the Dravidian languages; and can also be found in languages such as Mandarin Chinese, Javanese, Vietnamese, Swedish, Norwegian and some languages of Southern Italy and Sardinia."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 33 mins (2004-08-18 15:08:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/r/retroflex-consonant.htm
and also
http://eric.dane.free.fr/lingua/ipa/ipa.php
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs 19 mins (2004-08-19 06:54:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Comment on assimilation between words
http://francisstrand.blogspot.com/2002_02_01_francisstrand_a... \" and I\'ve never figured out any kind of rule for when they do the sh and when they don\'t\"
There is nor rule - or rather, this is an issue of individual speaking habits and sentence stress...
PS
There are at least two areas in Sweden where /r/ is SUPPRESSED before /s/: in the Gothenburg area on the West Coast and in Blekinge in the Southeast.
Lars > La:s
Discussion
If this kind of "s" is always pronounced like "sh", what do you think about the information from the link above: in "vi f�r se", "s" is not pronounced like a "sh"-sound?
Thank you all for your help!
If this kind of "s" is always pronounced like "sh", what do you think about the information from the link above: in "vi f�r se", "s" is not pronounced like a "sh"-sound?
Thank you all for your help!
Please tell me your opinion about the link below:
http://francisstrand.blogspot.com/2002_02_01_francisstrand_a...
"S - like English when preceding a vowel, except in Stockholm at least (but not in Sk�ne, for example) it becomes an sh after an R - this can be in a word that contains the two letters, such as Lars or it can be in two separate words, such as jag t�nker s� h�r; but sometimes they don't do it, such as in vi f�r se - we shall see - and I've never figured out any kind of rule for when they do the sh and when they don't."
I think he wanted to say "vi f�r se".