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PNN hypergranuleux +.
renversement postérieur du tronc
Aug 30, 2023 20:40
9 mos ago
50 viewers *
French term

Que le mariage est dissout par déclaration prononcée

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Hello there. Do you think the expression : Que le mariage est dissout par déclaration prononcée can be translated by : That the marriage is dissolved by a declaration pronouncee

Do you suggest any other translation?
Proposed translations (English)
5 dissolved by saying so out loud /"by stating so out loud"
5 -1 Considering that dissolution of marriage is established by statement issued to that effect
4 Whereas/That the marriage has been dissolved by means of a statement pronounced
5 -1 That the marriage be dissolved by decree.

Discussion

AllegroTrans Sep 8, 2023:
No ship. No crew. No nothing.
Daryo Sep 8, 2023:
Message from ground control Anyone on board? That a ghost ship?
AllegroTrans Sep 5, 2023:
@ Everyone Let's all go home. Asker is not providing context. Waste of time.
writeaway Sep 3, 2023:
@Emmanuella: In English we use the word typo, which is short for typographical error. Unfortunately the usual option to edit is missing so I can't change it to "prononcee".
AllegroTrans Sep 3, 2023:
@ Emm So this doesn't exist?
prononcé
adjectif et nom masculin

prononcée — Wiktionnaire, le dictionnaire libre
https://fr.wiktionary.org › wiki › pr...
·

Féminin singulier de prononcé. Quelle a été l'action intime de l'érysipèle sur le cours de la maladie mentale? Il agissait ici, très probablement, ...

nom masculin
Le prononcé
le jugement rendu par le juge.

adjectif

Très marqué, très visible, très perceptible.
Un goût prononcé pour la musique.
Emmanuella Sep 2, 2023:
Write away - prono[u] ncee with or without accents is not French.
Conor McAuley Sep 1, 2023:
OK Emm, pas de souci !
AllegroTrans Sep 1, 2023:
ASKER As you can see from some of the comments. we are waiting for you to provide CONTEXT
Please help us to hep you by responding, unless you are happy just to receive wild guesses
Emmanuella Sep 1, 2023:
Conor,
J'ai bien indiqué ' PAR déclaration prononcée' et non 'déclaration prononcée' dans ce contexte.
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2023:
Conor,
As you requested, 'par déclaration prononcée' is not correct in French.
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2023:
Agree completely about hope as a translation method!
Daryo Aug 31, 2023:
@Conor McAuley "a pronouncement can be oral or written".
Can only agree with that, the only problem being that in this ST "oral vs written" makes a huge very material difference.
You could simply use an equally ambiguous translation, and hope context will make it clear which one it is.
Personally I don't like "hope" as translation method ...
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2023:
Wordref reckons it's oral:

https://www.wordreference.com/fren/prononcer

But it's the way of these things that the less context we have, the more we get fixated on the tiny details.
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2023:
Wordref reckons it's oral:

https://www.wordreference.com/fren/prononcer

But it's the way of these things that the less context we have, the more we get fixated on the tiny details.
AllegroTrans Aug 31, 2023:
Prononcer... by a court = to deliver (e.g. a judgment or a declaration) rather than "pronounce"
So we are still in la la Land - we simply don't know if this is divorce through a court or by talaq. Sorry Conor but it isn't straightforward
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2023:
Non. Je prononce (oralement) une déclaration ( qui peut être écrite ou orale).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déclaration_d'indépendance_des...
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2023:
Donc ce sont des faux amis ?
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2023:
Conor,
Pronouncement = déclaration qui peut être écrite ou orale.
Prononcer ( cf. my link) c'est oral.
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2023:
Yeah, looking at the question again a few hours later, it does seem very straightforward to me.
We don't know who is making the pronouncement, and we don't need to know, we just translate what we have.
Translation does not take place in a perfect world, it takes place in the real, messy world.
Adrian MM. Aug 31, 2023:
prononcée - par qui ou par le biais de quoi? par le mari (vs. sa femme) ou par un tribunal sénégalais p.e. du département de Dakar. I seem to recall from 'grave and earnest correspondence course study' of Bromley's UK Matrimonial Causes and Passingham's English Family Law textbooks - of up to half a century ago - that *unilaterally husband-spoken* Talaqs and *similarly one-sided, patriarchical husband-induced* get-a-get, ghet or gett Jewish divorce chits or docs. have caused all kinds of mutual recognition problems in Anglo-Irish and US Am. Fed. law: https://www.jstor.org/stable/44027253
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2023:
Conor,
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie8/prononcer#:~:text=...
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2023:
"prononcée" As far as I understand "prononcée" and "pronouncement"...can be oral or written, makes no material difference.

A google of "written pronouncement" gets plenty of good hits.
AllegroTrans Aug 31, 2023:
VITAL CONTEXT PLEASE Which country and which court is this from? Or is this a talaq divorce?
Daryo Aug 31, 2023:
@Moussa Sy there is a "little detail" that you forgot to mention, not so obvious if you don't know about it already.

Talaq (repudiation)
Jurisprudence
The term talaq is commonly translated as "repudiation" or simply "divorce".[2][9] In classical Islamic law it refers to the husband's right to dissolve the marriage by simply announcing to his wife that he repudiates her.[9]
etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_in_Islam

Unless you know of some other context where a simple verbal declaration is all it takes to end a marriage?

Given the ambiguity of "déclaration prononcée" - "déclaration" could be a simple verbal statement OR a "written declaration" and that "prononcée" could mean nothing more that "spoken / said" as well as "a pronouncement from some authority" - you need to give THE FULL SENTENCE.

And confirm whether you're talking of a simple verbal declaration - which is the most likely as otherwise it would be "un jugement prononcé" followed by by who and when.
writeaway Aug 30, 2023:
declaration pronouncee isn't English and it isn't French either since the accents are missing

Proposed translations

58 mins

dissolved by saying so out loud /"by stating so out loud"

This is what the French says: that the marriage is dissolved if the person declares so out loud (probably needs to follow a specific formula?)

Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : Any references to back so much confidence? I have a strong feeling it has nothing to do with being stated 'out loud'. /Yes agree with your corrected version.
14 mins
I think you may be right. I was thinking of Muslim marriages were divorce is carried out by stating it aloud. There is a sense of “prononcé” that refers to a judgement being delivered. Perhaps it refers to once it is officially declared so. Thank you.
disagree BERTRAND TANKEU : "prononcé" here refers to a ruling by the competent jurisdiction
8 hrs
agree Daryo : Occam's razor says it must be that.
12 hrs
neutral AllegroTrans : How do you know that this is not the order of a court or judicial authority? We have zero context and don't even know what country the text is from. Your confidence level is astounding
13 hrs
As I said above, I was thinking of Muslim Marriage / divorce. Outside of that scenario, I think it would be along the lines of a ruling by a competent authority (as Bertrand Tankeu proposes)
agree Mpoma : Without more context suggesting the contrary it's reasonable to assume the verb "prononcer" is not used in a conventional judicial context necessarily implying a secular judge and court. But the lack of context is unforgivable and annoying.
2 days 15 hrs
disagree Annette Fehr : That has no relationship with the definition of prononcé in its legal context
83 days
Something went wrong...
-1
9 hrs

Considering that dissolution of marriage is established by statement issued to that effect

This is a procedure in divorce matters whereby dissolution of mariage can be done only through an official statement by competent jurisdiction.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : This "official statement by competent jurisdiction ending a marriage" would be called "un jugement".// you contradict your own explanation: a husband hardly qualifies as "the competent jurisdiction" (unless you're Henry VIII, but let's not digress)
4 hrs
From similar practices under traditional courts, it is not enough to say it out loud. It should be said with the intention of ending the marriage and this is established when the statement is made by a spouse before a competent group of persons.
neutral AllegroTrans : Insufficient context provided by Asker; Courts don't issue "statements", they make orders and judgments and married people cannot divorce by "issuing a statement"
5 hrs
The problem is the rendering of cultural specificities so as to fit in another culture. In most African traditional courts, divorce and a great number of proceedings are oral. The written proceedings are only before non-traditional courts
Something went wrong...
11 hrs

Whereas/That the marriage has been dissolved by means of a statement pronounced

We really need the line before and the line after, or the general context, to get the exact wording right for "Que", but apart from that, you can play it pretty much off a straight bat, i.e. pretty much word for word.

Well, in my opinion, anyway.

Done a "few" legal jobs in my time...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2023-08-31 08:39:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also the word order in French, or something about "déclaration prononcée" (with accents, as the ever-sharp writeaway indicates kindly), strikes me as unusual, so you keep that in Englsh with "statement pronounced".

Any input from French native speakers on that aspect?
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : We absolutely need proper context. Waste of time otherwise.
2 hrs
neutral ph-b (X) : Just to answer your query: nothing wrong with déclaration prononcée as such. But, as Adrian says in the discussion, by whom and how?/No, she doesn't. Please read again carefully.
2 hrs
Emm disagrees with you, but well, fight amongst Frenchies on that one / Well, I think she does, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either way mate
agree philgoddard : It desn't look as though we're going to get any more context, and this solution gets around the lack of it.
8 hrs
Totally, my thoughts exactly. Sorted!
neutral Emmanuella : Ici, 'par' ne peut pas être traduit par 'by means of'.
9 hrs
I beg to differ
disagree Annette Fehr : This is indeed is a judgement delivered by a magistrate, but it would be an error to translate it word-for-word. There's proper English-language legal terminology that exists for this phenomonon from divorce law..
83 days
Something went wrong...
-1
83 days

That the marriage be dissolved by decree.

Prononcée means enacted by a judge in a legally-binding document.

This is a typical sentence which can be found in the conclusion of an Act of divorce as delivered by a court statement. They follow a set form, first introducing the situation of each party, stating the demands by each, noting the elements of law involved, and then the magistrate writes a conclusion, beginning a section with the equivalent of "This court declares...". Déclaration prononcée means that this is the magistrate which is taking a decision, and which then has a legal weight, becoming enshrined in law.

If this sentence is not preceeded by a statement of the type, This court declares that.. and it's a stand-alone sentence, then it ought to read, May the marriage be dissolved by decree (of this court)

An alternative to decree for déclaration prononcée could be court order depending on which English-speaking country's legal frame of reference you're using for the target language.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 83 days (2023-11-22 10:14:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This is the definition from the Dictionnaire de l'académie française:
✻PRONONCÉ nom masculin
Étymologie :xviiie siècle. Participe passé substantivé de prononcer.
MARQUE DE DOMAINE :DROIT. Lecture, proclamation orale d’une décision de justice à l’audience du tribunal. Le prononcé de l’arrêt, de la sentence. Le prononcé du jugement a été mis en délibéré. (On a dit aussi Prononciation.)
Reference:

https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/divorce-separation-de-corps.php

https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9P4590

Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : (1) point of method: you assume that French law applies outside of France (2) did you notice the discussion about the ambiguity and the significant difference between "oral declaration by the husband" and the "written declaration by a judge"?
24 days
If the legal context is other than French, this should be mentioned.
Something went wrong...
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