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industria mecánica
cuando el sol para ti ya no salga...
Jul 2, 2022 16:40
1 yr ago
53 viewers *
Spanish term

idioma vs. lengua

Spanish to English Other Linguistics
Hi,

Working on an article about language and there's a reference to idioma and lengua in the same sentence and I'm not sure how to best differentiate them.

Pertenecer a un país en el que todos sus habitantes son, como mínimo, bilingües, es ya en sí una forma de amor. Un territorio pasa a ser paisaje en el momento en el que le otorgamos unas posibilidades afectivas, como ocurre con el paso del **idioma para convertirse en lengua.**

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this. Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 vernacular vs. (fully fledged) language in its own right
4 tongue vs. language
3 when a language becomes a tongue
References
Comment
Idiom becomes language
Change log

Jul 3, 2022 12:02: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other" , "Field (write-in)" from "Languages" to "(none)"

Discussion

Tomasso Jul 2, 2022:
frases idiomaticos Encontre algo talvez de interes,,,id en latin, el ego el id, hablando figurativamente de una manera desde mi punto de vista, pero en palabras literalmente. vease a https://blog.lengua-e.com/2007/que-son-las-expresiones-idiom... Dice...Las expresiones idiomáticas son vocabulario. Expresiones como tomar el pelo (‘burlarse de alguien’), traer por la calle de la amargura (‘hacer sufrir’) o dar gato por liebre (‘engañar’) son unidades que hay que aprender igual que lo hacemos con subrogar, arremeter o persuadir. Esta parte del vocabulario es de lo último que se aprende en una lengua extranjera, pero resulta fundamental para expresarse no ya con corrección sino con naturalidad.

Provenientes de fuente comun latin hoy en dia I am cold, sp I have cold... pues diferencias entre Ingles, It, Fr It,,en cuanto a ESTAR y SER, comenzaba como IDiOMATICOS, y pasaron a ser permanentes, pues lenguages nuevos. El verbo ir en It, yo voy, Io vado, pero nosotras Noi ANdiamo, Andiamo forma de ir. (Pues Andar en It es CAMMINARE).
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jul 2, 2022:
Perhaps it has to do with the idea that idioms that surface in a certain group or region, because of attributes that are specific or peculiar to either, such as geographic or occupational ones, become an established or standard mode of expression for them, and assume the significance of, and recognition as a language or regional tongue on its own. That sometimes allows it, and the groups who speak it, to take on a certain level of status, depending how far it might spread, into whatever regions. But the language that is recognized as "standard", which is the one used in business, economic, institutional circles like academia, and, most importantly, for the masses in general, the press, always has the most power and status in a country, and is the most widely understood by the majority of its citizens.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jul 2, 2022:
Here's Some Comparative Examples https://diffsense.com/diff/idiom/language

Proposed translations

+2
2 hrs
Selected

vernacular vs. (fully fledged) language in its own right

paso del idioma para convertirse en lengua : passage of the vernacular turning into a (fully-fledged) language in its own right.

vernacular ought not to be qualified as idiomatic vernacular or vernacular idiom.

I'll leave the 'mother tongue'. 'mother's or father's tongue' vs. '(no) native language' debate for now, as there seem to be some categoric English disputants on ProZ who think everybody must be fixed at birth with a native language (I once had a Swiss secretary with 'the 4 offiicial languages of Switzerland, plus her husband's English, and no native tongue'. When people asked what is your tnative language, she used to retort: 'you tell me!')
Example sentence:

French Sign Language: a language in its own right.

vernacular is of or pertaining to everyday language while idiomatic is pertaining or conforming to the mode of expression characteristic of a language.

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/750428-vernacular-n-vernáculo-idioma-vernáculo-a-nativo-local

http://diffsense.com/diff/idiom/vernacular

Peer comment(s):
agree neilmac
14 hrs
Thanks, Neil, and gracias. Vernacular is 'of course' a veneer.
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
18 hrs
Gracias, Beatiz, and thanks !
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
19 hrs

when a language becomes a tongue

I think both Adrian and Neilmac's suggestions are valid. I also wonder, though, if the source text context might imply something more visceral and poetic here. Otherwise the register seems a little off. The passage links bilingualism to a "forma de amor"... a "territorio" becoming a "paisaje"... a language becoming a (native?) tongue. Rather than an intellectual shift, I think it's an expression of affection--of feeling a greater connection with one's language (wherein it's converted from a mere "language" into a "tongue").

I'm taking a stab, of course. Adrian - I hear your point about the potential stickiness of terms like native/mother/father tongue. At the same time, the implication of these adjectives is a deep belonging, a true citizenship (as implied, for example, by Strong's "Learning One's Native Tongue" https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/L/bo427388... Likewise, the concept of having multiple native tongues actually seems relevant to the context. My suggestion removes the adjective, though, as one possible solution.

I also think the use of language/tongue parallels that of idioma/lengua here nicely, looking at their basic definitions and the poetic subtlety of each, with "tongue" being the more archaic and poetic of the two. Again, also recognizing the technical assessments that others have made, which I think are spot on.
Reference:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/native-tongue

https://dle.rae.es/idioma

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1 day 1 hr

tongue vs. language

I have always understood "idioma" as a more conversational term vs, "lengua" which is more official in nature.

If someone asks you how many languages do you speak, you would would typically respond using "idioma."
However in official documents or official web sites, "lengua" is the term usually used.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenguas_de_Argentina
Note how the title uses "lenguas" and yet in the description when making reference to what people speak, they use "idioma."

Hence to distinguish in English (a distinction we don't normally make given that we say "language" when referring to both words, you might want to use "tongue."
https://www.spanishdict.com/answers/179186/what-is-the-diffe...
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Reference comments

48 mins
Reference:

Comment

I am unable to find your phrase on any site in Spanish.

I can only find:


Lengua y dialecto: semejanzas y diferencias - Xuliocs.com
https://www.xuliocs.com › lengdialect
· Translate this page
***El dialecto es, en cambio, una variedad lingüística de otra lengua, que, a su vez puede llegar a convertirse en lengua***: todas las lenguas fueron antes ...

Hacia los conceptos de lengua, dialecto y hablas / Manuel Alvar
https://www.cervantesvirtual.com › h...
· Translate this page
De ella no se puede aceptar la expresión lengua regional, porque, en sentido especializado, lengua se opone a dialecto por ser «un idiome nettement différencié ...

¿Qué diferencias hay entre lengua y dialecto? - - Tradandgo
https://www.tradandgo.com › diferen...
· Translate this page
12 Mar 2021 — La diferencia entre los conceptos de lengua y dialecto es una cuestión ...*** un dialecto pasa a convertirse en una lengua***? son algunos de los ...

Dialectos: tipos, importancia, características y ejemplos
https://www.caracteristicas.co › dialec...
· Translate this page
Tipos de dialecto — Un dialecto o variante dialectal es una de las posibles manifestaciones de una lengua o idioma determinado. Se produce en el marco de un ...

¿Qué diferencias hay entre lengua y dialecto? - Salminter
https://www.salminter.com › blog › q...
· Translate this page
15 Sept 2019 — ¿Cuándo un dialecto pasa a convertirse en lengua?, ... Según el Diccionario de la lengua española, un dialecto es una «variedad de un idioma ...

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Note added at 50 mins (2022-07-02 17:30:44 GMT)
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OR

when does a language become a national language???



What is the Difference Between National Language and ...
https://pediaa.com › Language
31 Dec 2021 — A national language of a country can become the official language of the same country by default. However, if a language is to become the ...

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Note added at 51 mins (2022-07-02 17:31:26 GMT)
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sorry,

that should read

when does a language become a recognised language/official language
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16 hrs
Reference:

Idiom becomes language

The paper cited below seem to define "idiom" as sort of a precursor of language proper.

"Cato's idiom becomes a language because it is spoken between men, by those who share his life and feel his influence as well as by Cato himself."

The query text sample may have been influences by English writings on the subject.

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Note added at 1 day 16 hrs (2022-07-04 08:57:44 GMT)
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Correction: The query text sample may have been influenced by English writings on the subject.
Example sentence:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/450138

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree abe(L)solano
3 days 23 hrs
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