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don manuel non révélé
revenus d'agrément
Jun 15, 2022 16:40
1 yr ago
24 viewers *
French term

biens agréables pour le confort de l’existence

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Marriage contract.

"Contribution aux charges du mariage

Les futurs époux conviennent que toutes leurs dépenses autres que d’investissement constitueront des charges du mariage et que celles-ci seront supportées par eux à proportion de leurs facultés respectives.
Il faut entendre par dépenses du mariage, celles qui sont relatives à la satisfaction des besoins ordinaires de l’existence et au train de vie du ménage tels que les frais afférents au le logement, la nourriture, les loisirs, les vêtements, les soins du corps et de l’esprit, les déplacements et voyages, les biens de consommation ou périssables nécessaires, utiles, ou même simplement agréables pour le confort de l’existence."

On the face of it, a rather shockingly informal term to find in a notarially recorded instrument. My stab at this is "goods which are amenable for life's comforts".
Proposed translations (English)
3 -1 goods appropriate to (the couple's) comfort and lifestyle
4 goods providing a comfortable life (lifestyle)
4 consumer goods ... that merely contribute to having a comfortable life
3 that are pleasant and provide a comfortable existence
2 luxury goods
3 -1 Commodities that make life more enjoyable
2 non-necessaries
3 -2 commodities that allow a household to live in comfort/make life comfortable

Discussion

Daryo Jun 20, 2022:
links that work https://the.ismaili/sites/default/files/media/modele_contrat...

the same pdf as searchable text:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MZb-Fv...

http://www.mjn.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/MJN_2018-v2.pdf

Yes, I got it wrong, agréables does go with biens (de consommation ...), but no, it's not the case that "les biens de consommation sont agréables" - more accurately you have to look at "agréables pour" together, which gives it a different twist.
AllegroTrans Jun 17, 2022:
@ Conor Totally agree. Just an ordinary phrase that lawyers have latched on to. "Shockingly informal" to quote Mpoma so how shocking/how formal should we be when translating?
I think Mpoma will just have to go with his gut instinct on this one. Maybe he can skilfully combine shockingness (yes it is a word) with formality.
Conor McAuley Jun 17, 2022:
It strikes me as ordinary language used in a legal way. In other words, you won't find definitions of these terms in Bridge. So I would suggest a plain English translation and let the lawyers fight about the rest.

Well, some people don't need heat, just ego, unwarranted pride and inexperience, to go terribly off the rails, ignoring, in the process, some of the very best translators who post here.
Mpoma (asker) Jun 17, 2022:
Yes, heat does funny things ... to the méninges of m'learned friends sweating away in the 8th and 9th arrondissements. But in fact I should have said that I had found that phrase confort de l'existence had a few ghits. It's a legal "thing", indeed.
AllegroTrans Jun 16, 2022:
It seems that the phrase is not a one-off oddity foisted on Mpoma during a mind-disturbing heatwave as some sort of a prank. See:

Modèle contrat de mariage - the.Ismaili
https://the.ismaili › modele_contrat_de_mariage
PDF
simplement agréables pour le confort de l'existence. N'entrent pas dans les dépenses du mariage celles qui seraient susceptibles.

"Les conflits successoraux" - Mouvement Jeune Notariat
http://www.mjn.fr › 2018/09 › MJN_2018-v2
PDF
3 Sept 2018 — utiles, ou même simplement agréables pour le confort de l'existence. N'entrent pas dans les dépenses du mariage celles qui seraient ...
434 pages
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jun 16, 2022:
If they are specific to a household with a certain level of income, I would think so. Besides, the translation I have offered is "commodities that allow a household to live in comfort/make life comfortable". So yes, that could include things like trips. See: https://apps.bea.gov/scb/account_articles/national/0798ied/t... Italy—Ciao, ciao! (gotta go, at least for now)
Conor McAuley Jun 16, 2022:
"Items" was a joke.

Anecdote: my sister has taught English for 20 years, I have been in translation/subtitling for 20 years, and we both swore we would never, respectively, translate and teach. And that's how it's been.

Do you get a coalman/coal delivery person to light your fire or sweep your chimney? No, you don't.
Conor McAuley Jun 16, 2022:
Is travel ("déplacements et voyages"), a "household commodity" or even a commodity? Are leisure activities (loisirs) a "household commodity" or even a commodity?

The case is really rested now, because it's now also had time for a two-week spa, health and wellbeing break in Italy as well.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jun 16, 2022:
"Items" OK Well, I at least agree that there would be nothing wrong with using "items" in this instance, in the case of furniture, etc. "Things" and "this and that", however, would not be the least bit appropriate!
Conor McAuley Jun 16, 2022:
You might as well say "things", or "this and that", or "items".

Anyway, I'm bored now.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jun 16, 2022:
Household Commodity Demand https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s001480050084
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jun 16, 2022:
I don't think it lies, either, when it states on some of its pages that a commodity can refer to ANYTHING of use and value, the latter being something the asker's source text mentions, right before the phrase in question. In a household, commodities that satisfy the "besoins ordinaires de l'existence", would be things like furniture, lamps, refrigerators, etc.
Conor McAuley Jun 16, 2022:
"commodities in a home" - 7 internet search results.

Google doesn't lie about these things.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jun 16, 2022:
Commodities Is A Term That Covers Household Items ...like those mentioned in the source text, basic to everyday living. See what's listed in No. 10 here: https://www.grw-products.com/definitions_of_commodity_catego...
SafeTex Jun 16, 2022:
@ Phil and Mpoma Thanks for your explanations.
Mpoma (asker) Jun 16, 2022:
Because ... ... have a look at the sentence again. The subclause starting "les biens de consommation ou périssables" then has 3 adjectives (the last being an adjectival clause) ... "necessary, useful, or even ... X".

If you wanted to make a case for there being ambiguity about which noun was involved in the "X" adjectival clause above (dépenses or biens), there would absolutely *have* to be an "ou" between nécessaires and utiles rather than a comma. The presence of the comma removes the ambiguity by syntactically locking those 3 adjectives together and attaching them rigidly to the noun biens. There's no doubt on this point, as far as I'm concerned.

But, à titre infiniment subsidiaire (as they say), the suggestion that expenditure can be felt to be agréable is also, as Phil rightly says, semantically incongruous, if not actually absurd. This incongruity is accentuated by the strange confort... expression.

I have the advantage in that I was actually tasked with translating this and have therefore spent more time taxing my brain over the possibilities. I'm sure every contributor would have teased this out in my place.
philgoddard Jun 16, 2022:
SafeTex Because spending money is never "agréable". The things you get in return might be, but not the reduction in your bank balance. Daryo is wrong.
SafeTex Jun 16, 2022:
@ Mpoma Hello
I came to the same conclusion as you but based merely on "proximity". I was not able to rule out Daryo's parsing so I'd like to understand why you are so sure about this
Thanks
Mpoma (asker) Jun 16, 2022:
You've parsed that incorrectly This adjective agréables goes with biens de consommation. It cannot under any circumstances go with dépenses.
Daryo Jun 16, 2022:
In fact, if you look at the whole sentence, at the way this enumeration is structured,

it starts with dépenses du mariage,

and the last item is "simplement agréables pour le confort de l’existence".

so "simplement agreables" qualifies "dépenses" i.e. any spending, not necessarily only goods. It could also be any kind of "services", like treating yourself to a holiday.

If you restrict these "dépenses" only to "goods", that's not exactly what's in the ST.
Mpoma (asker) Jun 16, 2022:
In the end I put "goods which enhance an agreeable lifestyle", but I think anyone visiting here for this expression might prefer several of the other solutions, equally valid.

Possibly confort is not a perfect fit for English "comfort": paraphrase probably preferable.

Distinctly odd phrase for a legal doc.
Daryo Jun 16, 2022:
In plain speak (dépenses du mariage) ... ou même simplement agréables pour le confort de l’existence."
=
ou même simplement (des dépenses ) pour se faire plaisir.

IOW "I don't have to justify whether this particular spending was really necessary or not, I bought it just because I liked it - end of story - it's goind to be counted as 'dépenses du mariage'."
philgoddard Jun 15, 2022:
You could just say "desirable" Necessary, useful, or desirable.

Proposed translations

-1
29 mins
Selected

goods appropriate to (the couple's) comfort and lifestyle

Just an attempt to make it sound formal
There are other ways of rendering it, I'm sure

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2022-06-15 17:40:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

One persons "comfort" is another person's misery and torture
Which is why I have avoided using "comfort" subjectively
Peer comment(s):
disagree Barbara Cochran, MFA : Appropriate "to" seems to be incorrect usage: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/appropriate-for-to.1... I think it would be better to use "suited to", as opposed to "appropriate", if the asker decides to go in this direction.
18 hrs
OK but it was my attempt to find a formal expression which made "comfort/comfotable" less absolute // thanks, "suited to" is good
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks. "
7 mins

goods providing a comfortable life (lifestyle)

or alternatively,
"goods providing relative comfort"
Something went wrong...
44 mins

that are pleasant and provide a comfortable existence

"Jane Austen and ***Marriage*** https://books.google.fr › books· Traduire cette page
Hazel Jones · 2009 · ‎Literary Criticism
... by marriage articles, nowhere near enough to provide ***a comfortable existence*** or the financial incentives necessary for the girls to marry well."

Keeping it fairly literal would probably be a good idea.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Barbara Cochran, MFA : I've never heard "goods" or "household commodities" described as "pleasant".
18 hrs
Is a nice comfortable sofa (couch) pleasant or unpleasant? Perhaps a wooden stool would be better.
neutral AllegroTrans : a comfortable sofa is indeed pleasant but using pleasant as an adjective for consumer goods in general just doesn't sound right
1 day 4 hrs
Maybe a bad example -- a trip to Rio ("voyage") is very pleasant indeed! As is a swimming pool. I am stunned that nobody else translated "agréables" literally, as I think it should be here. Pleasant means pleasing, if you prefer to look at it like that.
neutral Daryo : after a third reading of the ST, I think that "agréables" is not about anything being "pleasant" but about s.t "agreeing with" a certain way of life ("agréables pour...")
4 days
Something went wrong...
54 mins

luxury goods

A bit further away from the French but perhaps a bit closer to what an English speaker might say to refer to such things.
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Surely if that is what is meant the French would be biens/articles de luxe
3 mins
Something went wrong...
-2
26 mins

commodities that allow a household to live in comfort/make life comfortable

Or that promote a comfortable life/lifestyle for a household.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2022-06-15 17:11:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or "live comfortably"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2022-06-15 18:09:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"commodities that allow a household to lead a comfortable existence"
Peer comment(s):
disagree Conor McAuley : Is a nice comfortable sofa (couch) pleasant or unpleasant? Perhaps a wooden stool would be better. / Machinery? Precision instruments? In a home? Not suitable for an international/UK context. And "soin d'esprit"?!
23 hrs
"Commodities" is a general term that covers specific items like those mentioned in the asker's source text: https://www.grw-products.com/definitions_of_commodity_catego... at No. 10, please, and have a good evening.
disagree AllegroTrans : "Commodities" to my mind are, e.g. grains, raw gold, oil, and natural gas; doesn't work for consumer goods
1 day 5 hrs
Sorry, but as I have already proved in the linguistic discussuion, it can refer to many more things, including various things that people consume, whether out of necessity or not.
neutral Daryo : except for "commodities", I would tend to agree.
4 days
Something went wrong...
-1
3 hrs

Commodities that make life more enjoyable

I think Barbara is right with commodities
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : Agree with "... that make life more enjoyable", but definitely not with "commodities" - these are far far more likely to be "luxury goods" // "commodities" have a connotation of "undifferentiated mass produced goods" meant for "basic necessities".
10 hrs
Would ITEMS work for you?
disagree Conor McAuley : Yikes, commodities again! Daryo is right. More than a connotation though, a definition. Ask a random person what "commodities" means to them. / "commodities in a home" - 7 ghits. The case has been rested, had two weeks' holidays, and is now back at work!
23 hrs
disagree AllegroTrans : "Commodities" to my mind are, e.g. grains, raw gold, oil, and natural gas; doesn't work for consumer goods
1 day 2 hrs
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA : Commodities, of diverse kinds, that allow a couple or a family to enjoy life at a more than just average level.
1 day 4 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

non-necessaries

The English contract law definition of (non-)necessaries came to mind - vs. the discussion entry of 'necessary, useful or desirable'.
Example sentence:

Contracts for necessaries are for such things as the supply of food, medicines, accommodation and clothing, but generally speaking conveniences and products and services for *comfort or pleasure* are excluded, as are commercial or 'trading' contracts.

non-necessary / noun > In plural. Things which are not necessary, especially *luxuries*.

Reference:

http://www.lexico.com/definition/non-necessary

Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : technically you're right, but it's the wrong approach. You don't say that s.t. is nice by saying "it's not horrible" // same difference as "glass half-full" vs "glass half-empty" - it's the same without being the same.
4 days
asker: 'On the face of it, a rather shockingly informal term...'- So turned into an ENG legal term of art as per 1st year ENG contract law course. Otherwise, use a 'reverse translation technique' & translate '(non-)necessaries' informally back into FRE.
Something went wrong...
4 days
French term (edited): biens de consommation .... simplement agréables pour le confort de l’existence

consumer goods ... that merely contribute to having a comfortable life

IOW consumer goods bought for no other reason that they simply contribute to having a comfortable life (without being any kind of "necessity", nor especially useful thus "merely")

BTW it has to be the very general "consumer goods" because they are later subdivided into "necessities" / "useful" and "luxury goods".


Il faut entendre par dépenses du mariage, celles qui sont relatives à la satisfaction
-- des besoins ordinaires de l’existence et
-- au train de vie du ménage

tels que les frais afférents au
- le logement,
- la nourriture,
- les loisirs,
- les vêtements,
- les soins du corps et de l’esprit,
- les déplacements et voyages,
- les biens de consommation ou périssables
--- nécessaires,
--- utiles, ou
--- même simplement agréables pour le confort de l’existence

I think that here looking at "agréables" on its own is misleading; the construction used is in fact "qq est 'agréable pour' arriver à un but (le confort de l’existence)", or "agreeable" in the sense of "s.t agrees with s.t. else" as in "buying that kind of goods 'agrees with' having a comfortable life".

Also there is this gradation from "bare necessities" (biens ...nécessaires) to basically "luxury goods" that might not even be particularly "useful" but are part of "having a comfortable life" (maintenir le train de vie)

There is in fact an established term for this, being used in UK in divorce proceedings, meaning roughly that the spending on simply "maintenir le train de vie" has to be also included in the divorce settlement. But I can't recall it right now.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2022-06-20 14:50:56 GMT)
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.. "qq ch est 'agréable pour' ...
Something went wrong...
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