Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
en tous cas sur le territoire national ... en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit
English translation:
in any event within national territory ... and in any event within the statutory limitation period
Added to glossary by
Rory Andrew Gale
Mar 2, 2022 15:48
2 yrs ago
48 viewers *
French term
en tous cas sur le territoire national ... en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Court summons
Pour avoir à [ville], en tous cas sur le territoire national, le [date], en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit, dans le cadre d'une relation de travail [...] involontairement causé [le crime].
Part of a document asking someone to come testify in court.
Wracking my brains over this one and getting nowhere fast. This part of sentence makes almost no sense - how can the time not be 'préscrit' if they've specified the date?? What is the point of the 'en tous cas' part of both of these clauses??
Any help would highly appreciated.
Thanks
Part of a document asking someone to come testify in court.
Wracking my brains over this one and getting nowhere fast. This part of sentence makes almost no sense - how can the time not be 'préscrit' if they've specified the date?? What is the point of the 'en tous cas' part of both of these clauses??
Any help would highly appreciated.
Thanks
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+2
16 hrs
Selected
in any event within national territory ... and in any event within the statutory limitation period
Having seen Conor's "in any case" (which is the right meaning but perhaps not an expression you'd see in a legal instrument) and AllegroT's "in all cases", which to my way of thinking doesn't work because it is baffling to the reader in English, I think this possibly works.
"In any event" does indeed meet the requirement of being of a sufficiently formal register, in my view. It is indeed the expression lawyers use to "cover all bases".
"In any event" does indeed meet the requirement of being of a sufficiently formal register, in my view. It is indeed the expression lawyers use to "cover all bases".
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
|
thanks
|
|
agree |
Steve Robbie
: Best translation of "en tous cas" IMO and thus my second-favourite answer.
3 hrs
|
neutral |
Adrian MM.
: It's 'en tous cas' rather than 'en tout cas' or 'en tout état de cause'. Excuse the breach of ProZ etiquette of co-posting, but you would have done better to lift my 'at all events' idea, rather than reformulate to an ambiguous non-UK indictment phrase.
4 days
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
7 mins
Under any circumstances on national territory....in any case for a non-prescribed period
within the framework/ context of a work relationship,,was the unwitting cause of the crime ..
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
AllegroTrans
: You wouldn't put "under any circumstances" in an English charge sheet or indictment, but "in all circumstances" could work. I completely fail to understand your explanation
5 hrs
|
Yes, judging by this and your other comments here, you come across as confused, to be honest;
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disagree |
Adrian MM.
: with AT - about any circumstances and non-prescribed is a faux ami clanger. It means time- or statute-unbarred.
4 days
|
Well, that must be it, then.
|
-1
3 hrs
at all relevant (material) times on national territory ... time-unbarred at all relevant times
It's en tous cas rather than en tout cas: perchance, a subtle linguistic and legal difference. Possibly at all material times is more for civil pleadings (now called Statements of Case in E&W) than criminally relevant: cut to Anastasia K's relevant periods comment.
I am afraid I cannot follow the logic of no time lmit in ProZ comments on 1465998, but one thing is sure : non-prescribed is a faux ami.
'At all events' - excuse the pun, this geezer seems to be caught on both geographical and timing grounds, the concept of a time limit for crimes being dodgy in English law: the death within 'a year and a day rule' post-thumping has been abolished.
I am afraid I cannot follow the logic of no time lmit in ProZ comments on 1465998, but one thing is sure : non-prescribed is a faux ami.
'At all events' - excuse the pun, this geezer seems to be caught on both geographical and timing grounds, the concept of a time limit for crimes being dodgy in English law: the death within 'a year and a day rule' post-thumping has been abolished.
Example sentence:
"material" is used to describe that "at all important times" and all important times means "all relevant times" this i am sure is to exclude a situation wherein a person refers to unrelated issues which do not affect the case.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Better than other answers but "time-unbarred" - ugh
2 hrs
|
OK - statute-unbarred then. As my erstwhile notarial translation agency in Central London used to tell 'difficult' Solicitor clients: 'we can argue about style until the cows come home.'
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disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Extremely confused answer and explanation; never heard of statutes of limitations??//No, I'm not nor have ever been a lawyer, but then neither have you, except in your own crazed imagination.
7 hrs
|
Obviously you - as a 'non-prescribed' non-lawyer - haven't. BTW, the statute is referred to, in UK legal practice, in terms of time limits and wouldn't be mentioned anyway in a UK criminal indictment that I, rather than you, have drafted.
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7 hrs
or elsewhere in [country], or on any other date not statute-barred
For the sake of variety ...
in [place] or elsewhere in [country], on [date] or on any other date not statute-barred
Question: shouldn't it be 'en tout cas' (singular, with a T), in any case?
in [place] or elsewhere in [country], on [date] or on any other date not statute-barred
Question: shouldn't it be 'en tout cas' (singular, with a T), in any case?
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
AllegroTrans
: It's not about "any other date" it's about a specific date (i.e. when the crime was committed) which is not statute-barred; I fail to see where you get "elsewhere" from
52 mins
|
agree |
Steve Robbie
: "in X, or elsewhere ..., on YY/YY/YYYY or on another* date ..." is smooth, clear English. "En tous cas" does not need to be literally translated. * n.b. "another", not "any other"
11 hrs
|
-1
8 hrs
in all cases within the national territory and within the statutory limitation period
In other words:
1) the crime (in all its regards, in terms of jurisdiction) was committed within French territory
2) the crime (in all its regards, in terms of jurisdiction) was not committed before date x [date before which limitation applies]
1) the crime (in all its regards, in terms of jurisdiction) was committed within French territory
2) the crime (in all its regards, in terms of jurisdiction) was not committed before date x [date before which limitation applies]
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Daryo
: shortest and clearest explanation
4 mins
|
thanks
|
|
disagree |
Conor McAuley
: My general policy is not to disagree with competing answers, but Chris, a) you're taking the piss, and b) you're really taking the piss, and c) you have ZERO references.
1 hr
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I have no references because, having worked both in the Central Criminal Court and the Crown Court, I have not seen an equivalent phrase used in GB. This is a case where a suitable formula has to be made up from scratch
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neutral |
Mpoma
: I'm really not sure about this either: it sounds too weird in English. The French also sounds weird, but gets away with it because it's a legal set phrase. This doesn't seem to be in English. It ends up confusing the reader, IMHO.
7 hrs
|
Well I tried to produce a formula that WOULD be understood
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disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: To give you a taste of your own medicine, and because I support Conor here;// Your fault. Provoked by your own lack of judgment, linguistic or otherwise;and taking your word for anything doesn't wash, as self-appraisal is no guarantee of merit,
9 hrs
|
That is not a linguistic argument // nor is revenge a guarantee of merit
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-1
35 mins
and in any case in France...etc.
See Steve's comment in the Discussion.
In event the witnesses (or the police) are not entirely sure about the basic facts, these phrases act as a kind of "cover-all", i.e. if not there, then anywhere in France, and if not on that date, then on a date not time-barred as regards prosecution thereof, to make sure the alleged crook is nabbed.
Presumably without these phrases, the alleged crook might get off, on review (appeal) on what is called an error of fact in the UK. But this is commentary rather than the words you need.
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Note added at 47 mins (2022-03-02 16:36:05 GMT)
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Please note, there is potentially disturbing material in this post.
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=1...
Page down to [14] 4
"4.The offence of assault had been committed against D ***on or about*** 27 or 28 June 1998 when he was under one year of age and whilst in the care of the appellant and her partner or the appellant's parents."
This is the way they sort this problem in Scottish law.
The same in England & Wales law?
Plenty of matches for the US, anyway.
Whether or not there's a UK or US solution to the issue of geographical location and doubts about it, I don't know.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-03 02:49:49 GMT)
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Rory: you need to bear in mind that somethimes there just isn't an equivalency, I reckon I'm 50% there with "on or about", as regards the date, if you're going for a natural, equivalency, rendering.
Other two points for the geographical thing: "in or around"? That does it, in plain Englsh at least, which is the trend in legal language. For example, "in or around Grenoble". Or "in the vicinity of", is suitable formal.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-03 02:52:13 GMT)
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As for "non prescrit", I'm sure there are many options in the glossaries here, on ProZ, and also in legal dictionaries, notably FHS Bridge's -- I don't think that was the main thrust of your question.
In event the witnesses (or the police) are not entirely sure about the basic facts, these phrases act as a kind of "cover-all", i.e. if not there, then anywhere in France, and if not on that date, then on a date not time-barred as regards prosecution thereof, to make sure the alleged crook is nabbed.
Presumably without these phrases, the alleged crook might get off, on review (appeal) on what is called an error of fact in the UK. But this is commentary rather than the words you need.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 47 mins (2022-03-02 16:36:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Please note, there is potentially disturbing material in this post.
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=1...
Page down to [14] 4
"4.The offence of assault had been committed against D ***on or about*** 27 or 28 June 1998 when he was under one year of age and whilst in the care of the appellant and her partner or the appellant's parents."
This is the way they sort this problem in Scottish law.
The same in England & Wales law?
Plenty of matches for the US, anyway.
Whether or not there's a UK or US solution to the issue of geographical location and doubts about it, I don't know.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-03 02:49:49 GMT)
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Rory: you need to bear in mind that somethimes there just isn't an equivalency, I reckon I'm 50% there with "on or about", as regards the date, if you're going for a natural, equivalency, rendering.
Other two points for the geographical thing: "in or around"? That does it, in plain Englsh at least, which is the trend in legal language. For example, "in or around Grenoble". Or "in the vicinity of", is suitable formal.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-03 02:52:13 GMT)
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As for "non prescrit", I'm sure there are many options in the glossaries here, on ProZ, and also in legal dictionaries, notably FHS Bridge's -- I don't think that was the main thrust of your question.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
AllegroTrans
: You wouldn't put "in any case" in an English charge sheet or indictment
5 hrs
|
You say "in all cases" v. my answer "in any case"? What's the difference? My answer is more idiomatic. AND I've gone for an equivalency with "on or about", in the body of my answer, so I've sorted half, if equivalency is the way the Asker wants to go.
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neutral |
Mpoma
: I think "in any case" is (much) closer to meaning than "in all cases". But I think AT has a valid point re the question of the actual expression to use: the register may be just a shade too informal (like my "or at least")... "in any event"?
15 hrs
|
-1
2 days 17 hrs
in each case on the national territory ... in each case since the start of the unspecified time
'... In each case or event on the national territory (town) ... in each case or event (date) and in each case since the start of the unspecified and non-designated time period or place, in the case of working relations (...) a crime was caused involuntarily.'
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Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 05:14:47 GMT) Post-grading
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"Statutory limitation periods refer to the fixed periods of time during which legal proceedings can be brought. Once the time has passed it is no longer possible to lodge a claim as this can be deemed out of time or 'statute barred'."
google.com
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Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 08:59:44 GMT) Post-grading
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The unspecified time is indefinite while there is no definite limit in place. From the start of such is the beginning of an event which took place.
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Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 09:06:40 GMT) Post-grading
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FR:
"Les périodes de la limitation statutaire ou la restriction légale s'agissent des périodes fixes de temps pendant lesquels les démarches ou les procédures juridiques peuvent être apportées. Lorsque le période de temps stipulé a été passé il n'est plus possible mettre une reclamation puisque ça peut être considéré dehors du temps ou comme 'un statut bloqué'"
Le période non spécifié de temps n'est pas définitif tandis qu'il n'existe pas de limitation mise. Du début duquel est le commencement d;un evénèment qui a eu lieu.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 05:14:47 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
"Statutory limitation periods refer to the fixed periods of time during which legal proceedings can be brought. Once the time has passed it is no longer possible to lodge a claim as this can be deemed out of time or 'statute barred'."
google.com
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 08:59:44 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
The unspecified time is indefinite while there is no definite limit in place. From the start of such is the beginning of an event which took place.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 09:06:40 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
FR:
"Les périodes de la limitation statutaire ou la restriction légale s'agissent des périodes fixes de temps pendant lesquels les démarches ou les procédures juridiques peuvent être apportées. Lorsque le période de temps stipulé a été passé il n'est plus possible mettre une reclamation puisque ça peut être considéré dehors du temps ou comme 'un statut bloqué'"
Le période non spécifié de temps n'est pas définitif tandis qu'il n'existe pas de limitation mise. Du début duquel est le commencement d;un evénèment qui a eu lieu.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
AllegroTrans
: it is very obvious that you do not understand what statutory limitation is; "since the start of the unspecified time" makes no sense
7 hrs
|
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
Good afternoon Rory,
I came across this thread that might prove useful:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sur-territoire-natio...
I came across this thread that might prove useful:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sur-territoire-natio...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
1 hr
|
agree |
AllegroTrans
: But some of the suggestions are dodgy
4 hrs
|
8 hrs
Reference:
Bulletin des Arrêts Chambre criminelle
Vu le réquisitoire supplétif, en date du 19 juin 2014, concernant l’infraction de recel de criminels, en l’espèce les auteurs ou complices de l’assassinat en bande organisée de Hélène Y... et de Mohamed Z..., faits commis courant mai et juin 2014 et en tous cas depuis un temps non couvert par la prescription, dans le département de l’Ille-et-Vilaine, sur le ressort de la JIRS de Marseille et en tous cas sur le territoire national ;
https://www.courdecassation.fr/files/files/Publications/Bull...
https://www.courdecassation.fr/files/files/Publications/Bull...
Discussion
2) The next problem is not just "non-prescrit" but that the term "depuis" is in there. When it comes to the expression of how time is perceived, there is nothing better than this 6-letter word to put a spanner in the works. While "not statute-barred" and "not time-barred" work, I think the most efficient and fluid solution here is "within the statutory limitation period".
Other two points for the geographical thing: "in or around"? That does it, in plain Englsh at least, which is the trend in legal language. For example, "in or around Grenoble". Or "in the vicinity of", is suitable formal.
Amy Grieve (asker) 25 Jul 2006Thank you both for your comments - you are quite right of course. I have changed my document accordingly.
Francis Marche 25 Jul 2006I agree with Nikki's comment. Since "prescrit" is "time-barred", "depuis temps NON prescrit" means the alledged crime is NOT time-barred at the time of proceedings.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne 24 Jul 2006Post-selection comment : "Depuis [le] temps NON prescript", which to me reads to mean quite the opposite, to the answer selected, i.e. that the incidents occurred outside the "relevant" periods and are thus NOT time barred.
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/146...
I assume you searched beforehand. When looking for terms here, I always search not only using the Proz search engine but also googling after adding the word "proz".
This is just in case the document turns out to be mistaken about the location or the date.
I've phrased it rather casually, but I hope it puts you on the right road.