Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

en tous cas sur le territoire national ... en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit

English translation:

in any event within national territory ... and in any event within the statutory limitation period

Added to glossary by Rory Andrew Gale
Mar 2, 2022 15:48
2 yrs ago
48 viewers *
French term

en tous cas sur le territoire national ... en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Court summons
Pour avoir à [ville], en tous cas sur le territoire national, le [date], en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit, dans le cadre d'une relation de travail [...] involontairement causé [le crime].

Part of a document asking someone to come testify in court.

Wracking my brains over this one and getting nowhere fast. This part of sentence makes almost no sense - how can the time not be 'préscrit' if they've specified the date?? What is the point of the 'en tous cas' part of both of these clauses??

Any help would highly appreciated.

Thanks

Discussion

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Mar 4, 2022:
My two euro-cent's worth 1) "In any event" for legalese, whether en "tout cas" or "tous cas", that distinction being catered in both cases for in English with "any".
2) The next problem is not just "non-prescrit" but that the term "depuis" is in there. When it comes to the expression of how time is perceived, there is nothing better than this 6-letter word to put a spanner in the works. While "not statute-barred" and "not time-barred" work, I think the most efficient and fluid solution here is "within the statutory limitation period".
AllegroTrans Mar 3, 2022:
Look at this from a different angle Imagine you are a native En-spkg civil servant working for the French Ministry of Justice. Your boss comes up to you one morning and tells you (haha) that France is about to adopt English as its second official language. He wants you to draft formal wording to be added to all criminal indictments. This must be a catch-all phrase to state the notion that the alleged crimes(s) was/were committed on French soil and are not time-barred. He doesn't show you the existing French wording because he thinks it's too formulaic for a direct translation. He does insist however on the kind of precise legalese which would be acceptable and understood by UK or Irish lawyers. Go to it!
Conor McAuley Mar 3, 2022:
Rory: you need to bear in mind that somethimes there just isn't an equivalency, I reckon I'm 50% there with "on or about", as regards the date, if you're going for a natural, equivalency, rendering.

Other two points for the geographical thing: "in or around"? That does it, in plain Englsh at least, which is the trend in legal language. For example, "in or around Grenoble". Or "in the vicinity of", is suitable formal.
Anastasia Kalantzi Mar 2, 2022:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-g Discussion
Amy Grieve (asker) 25 Jul 2006Thank you both for your comments - you are quite right of course. I have changed my document accordingly.
Francis Marche 25 Jul 2006I agree with Nikki's comment. Since "prescrit" is "time-barred", "depuis temps NON prescrit" means the alledged crime is NOT time-barred at the time of proceedings.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne 24 Jul 2006Post-selection comment : "Depuis [le] temps NON prescript", which to me reads to mean quite the opposite, to the answer selected, i.e. that the incidents occurred outside the "relevant" periods and are thus NOT time barred.
Mpoma Mar 2, 2022:
Archives "en tous cas depuis temps non prescrit" - seen before

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/146...

I assume you searched beforehand. When looking for terms here, I always search not only using the Proz search engine but also googling after adding the word "proz".
Steve Robbie Mar 2, 2022:
Covering all eventualities Think of "en tous cas" as meaning "or at any rate". Person X is accused of having involuntarily caused Y at Location, or at any rate in France, on Date, or at any rate within the statute of limitations.

This is just in case the document turns out to be mistaken about the location or the date.

I've phrased it rather casually, but I hope it puts you on the right road.

Proposed translations

+2
16 hrs
Selected

in any event within national territory ... and in any event within the statutory limitation period

Having seen Conor's "in any case" (which is the right meaning but perhaps not an expression you'd see in a legal instrument) and AllegroT's "in all cases", which to my way of thinking doesn't work because it is baffling to the reader in English, I think this possibly works.

"In any event" does indeed meet the requirement of being of a sufficiently formal register, in my view. It is indeed the expression lawyers use to "cover all bases".
Peer comment(s):

agree Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
thanks
agree Steve Robbie : Best translation of "en tous cas" IMO and thus my second-favourite answer.
3 hrs
neutral Adrian MM. : It's 'en tous cas' rather than 'en tout cas' or 'en tout état de cause'. Excuse the breach of ProZ etiquette of co-posting, but you would have done better to lift my 'at all events' idea, rather than reformulate to an ambiguous non-UK indictment phrase.
4 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
7 mins

Under any circumstances on national territory....in any case for a non-prescribed period

within the framework/ context of a work relationship,,was the unwitting cause of the crime ..
Peer comment(s):

disagree AllegroTrans : You wouldn't put "under any circumstances" in an English charge sheet or indictment, but "in all circumstances" could work. I completely fail to understand your explanation
5 hrs
Yes, judging by this and your other comments here, you come across as confused, to be honest;
disagree Adrian MM. : with AT - about any circumstances and non-prescribed is a faux ami clanger. It means time- or statute-unbarred.
4 days
Well, that must be it, then.
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-1
3 hrs

at all relevant (material) times on national territory ... time-unbarred at all relevant times

It's en tous cas rather than en tout cas: perchance, a subtle linguistic and legal difference. Possibly at all material times is more for civil pleadings (now called Statements of Case in E&W) than criminally relevant: cut to Anastasia K's relevant periods comment.

I am afraid I cannot follow the logic of no time lmit in ProZ comments on 1465998, but one thing is sure : non-prescribed is a faux ami.

'At all events' - excuse the pun, this geezer seems to be caught on both geographical and timing grounds, the concept of a time limit for crimes being dodgy in English law: the death within 'a year and a day rule' post-thumping has been abolished.
Example sentence:

"material" is used to describe that "at all important times" and all important times means "all relevant times" this i am sure is to exclude a situation wherein a person refers to unrelated issues which do not affect the case.

Peer comment(s):

neutral AllegroTrans : Better than other answers but "time-unbarred" - ugh
2 hrs
OK - statute-unbarred then. As my erstwhile notarial translation agency in Central London used to tell 'difficult' Solicitor clients: 'we can argue about style until the cows come home.'
disagree Andrew Bramhall : Extremely confused answer and explanation; never heard of statutes of limitations??//No, I'm not nor have ever been a lawyer, but then neither have you, except in your own crazed imagination.
7 hrs
Obviously you - as a 'non-prescribed' non-lawyer - haven't. BTW, the statute is referred to, in UK legal practice, in terms of time limits and wouldn't be mentioned anyway in a UK criminal indictment that I, rather than you, have drafted.
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7 hrs

or elsewhere in [country], or on any other date not statute-barred

For the sake of variety ...

in [place] or elsewhere in [country], on [date] or on any other date not statute-barred

Question: shouldn't it be 'en tout cas' (singular, with a T), in any case?
Peer comment(s):

disagree AllegroTrans : It's not about "any other date" it's about a specific date (i.e. when the crime was committed) which is not statute-barred; I fail to see where you get "elsewhere" from
52 mins
agree Steve Robbie : "in X, or elsewhere ..., on YY/YY/YYYY or on another* date ..." is smooth, clear English. "En tous cas" does not need to be literally translated. * n.b. "another", not "any other"
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
8 hrs

in all cases within the national territory and within the statutory limitation period

In other words:
1) the crime (in all its regards, in terms of jurisdiction) was committed within French territory
2) the crime (in all its regards, in terms of jurisdiction) was not committed before date x [date before which limitation applies]
Peer comment(s):

agree Daryo : shortest and clearest explanation
4 mins
thanks
disagree Conor McAuley : My general policy is not to disagree with competing answers, but Chris, a) you're taking the piss, and b) you're really taking the piss, and c) you have ZERO references.
1 hr
I have no references because, having worked both in the Central Criminal Court and the Crown Court, I have not seen an equivalent phrase used in GB. This is a case where a suitable formula has to be made up from scratch
neutral Mpoma : I'm really not sure about this either: it sounds too weird in English. The French also sounds weird, but gets away with it because it's a legal set phrase. This doesn't seem to be in English. It ends up confusing the reader, IMHO.
7 hrs
Well I tried to produce a formula that WOULD be understood
disagree Andrew Bramhall : To give you a taste of your own medicine, and because I support Conor here;// Your fault. Provoked by your own lack of judgment, linguistic or otherwise;and taking your word for anything doesn't wash, as self-appraisal is no guarantee of merit,
9 hrs
That is not a linguistic argument // nor is revenge a guarantee of merit
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-1
35 mins

and in any case in France...etc.

See Steve's comment in the Discussion.

In event the witnesses (or the police) are not entirely sure about the basic facts, these phrases act as a kind of "cover-all", i.e. if not there, then anywhere in France, and if not on that date, then on a date not time-barred as regards prosecution thereof, to make sure the alleged crook is nabbed.

Presumably without these phrases, the alleged crook might get off, on review (appeal) on what is called an error of fact in the UK. But this is commentary rather than the words you need.

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Note added at 47 mins (2022-03-02 16:36:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Please note, there is potentially disturbing material in this post.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=1...

Page down to [14] 4

"4.The offence of assault had been committed against D ***on or about*** 27 or 28 June 1998 when he was under one year of age and whilst in the care of the appellant and her partner or the appellant's parents."


This is the way they sort this problem in Scottish law.
The same in England & Wales law?

Plenty of matches for the US, anyway.


Whether or not there's a UK or US solution to the issue of geographical location and doubts about it, I don't know.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-03 02:49:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Rory: you need to bear in mind that somethimes there just isn't an equivalency, I reckon I'm 50% there with "on or about", as regards the date, if you're going for a natural, equivalency, rendering.

Other two points for the geographical thing: "in or around"? That does it, in plain Englsh at least, which is the trend in legal language. For example, "in or around Grenoble". Or "in the vicinity of", is suitable formal.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-03 02:52:13 GMT)
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As for "non prescrit", I'm sure there are many options in the glossaries here, on ProZ, and also in legal dictionaries, notably FHS Bridge's -- I don't think that was the main thrust of your question.

Peer comment(s):

disagree AllegroTrans : You wouldn't put "in any case" in an English charge sheet or indictment
5 hrs
You say "in all cases" v. my answer "in any case"? What's the difference? My answer is more idiomatic. AND I've gone for an equivalency with "on or about", in the body of my answer, so I've sorted half, if equivalency is the way the Asker wants to go.
neutral Mpoma : I think "in any case" is (much) closer to meaning than "in all cases". But I think AT has a valid point re the question of the actual expression to use: the register may be just a shade too informal (like my "or at least")... "in any event"?
15 hrs
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-1
2 days 17 hrs

in each case on the national territory ... in each case since the start of the unspecified time

'... In each case or event on the national territory (town) ... in each case or event (date) and in each case since the start of the unspecified and non-designated time period or place, in the case of working relations (...) a crime was caused involuntarily.'

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Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 05:14:47 GMT) Post-grading
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"Statutory limitation periods refer to the fixed periods of time during which legal proceedings can be brought. Once the time has passed it is no longer possible to lodge a claim as this can be deemed out of time or 'statute barred'."
google.com

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Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 08:59:44 GMT) Post-grading
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The unspecified time is indefinite while there is no definite limit in place. From the start of such is the beginning of an event which took place.

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Note added at 6 days (2022-03-09 09:06:40 GMT) Post-grading
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FR:
"Les périodes de la limitation statutaire ou la restriction légale s'agissent des périodes fixes de temps pendant lesquels les démarches ou les procédures juridiques peuvent être apportées. Lorsque le période de temps stipulé a été passé il n'est plus possible mettre une reclamation puisque ça peut être considéré dehors du temps ou comme 'un statut bloqué'"
Le période non spécifié de temps n'est pas définitif tandis qu'il n'existe pas de limitation mise. Du début duquel est le commencement d;un evénèment qui a eu lieu.
Peer comment(s):

disagree AllegroTrans : it is very obvious that you do not understand what statutory limitation is; "since the start of the unspecified time" makes no sense
7 hrs
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Good afternoon Rory,
I came across this thread that might prove useful:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sur-territoire-natio...
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Anastasia Kalantzi
1 hr
agree AllegroTrans : But some of the suggestions are dodgy
4 hrs
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8 hrs
Reference:

Bulletin des Arrêts Chambre criminelle

Vu le réquisitoire supplétif, en date du 19 juin 2014, concernant l’infraction de recel de criminels, en l’espèce les auteurs ou complices de l’assassinat en bande organisée de Hélène Y... et de Mohamed Z..., faits commis courant mai et juin 2014 et en tous cas depuis un temps non couvert par la prescription, dans le département de l’Ille-et-Vilaine, sur le ressort de la JIRS de Marseille et en tous cas sur le territoire national ;

https://www.courdecassation.fr/files/files/Publications/Bull...
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree AllegroTrans : yes, one of countless examples
6 mins
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