Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

juridicité

English translation:

Juridicity

Added to glossary by Sheila Hardie
Sep 18, 2019 05:54
4 yrs ago
14 viewers *
French term

juridicité

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
***juridicité***, définie comme “la propriété des pratiques sociales de répondre à une finalité par une contrainte”, pour la réalisation de ces droits

I am not sure what the proper English translation of this term would be. I don't think that 'juridicity' is correct. I found a discussion about this term online (https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/juridicité.2213869/) but am still unsure.

Many thanks in advance!


Sheila

Discussion

Ben Gaia Sep 27, 2019:
Legalese Yes... please leave this debate up as it's the best I've seen in here for months!
AllegroTrans Sep 26, 2019:
I posted a comment here about Legalese For some totally unjustified reason it has been removed by moderator Yolanda Broad, even though other posts on the same subject are still here. There was nothing offensive about my post. Yolanda, please reinstate my comment, this discussion is entirely valid between serious professional translators.
Eliza Hall Sep 26, 2019:
Legalese... in a legal document Legal documents contain legalese and are written for people who understand legalese. They should therefore be translated into legalese in the target language.

If you're translating a FR>EN medical document, "gastro-entérite" doesn't get translated as "stomach flu." It gets translated as "gastroenteritis," even though some laypeople might not understand that term. We're not there to rewrite highly technical or scholarly documents so that they become understandable to lay readers. We're there to translate what's written.
SafeTex Sep 26, 2019:
@ Allegro yes, clearly expressed without any legalese :)
SafeTex Sep 24, 2019:
@Eliza Guess we don't all agree then:

European Union

EU guidelines say that 'the wording of (an) Act should be clear, simple, concise and unambiguous; unnecessary abbreviations, "COMMUNITY JARGON" [my bold) and excessively long sentences should be avoided'.


United States

The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws says: 'The essentials of good bill drafting are accuracy, brevity, clarity and simplicity. Choose words that are PLAIN AND COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD [my bold]. Use language that conveys the intended meaning to EVERY READER [my bold]. Omit unnecessary words.'

[end of quotes]

i would agree that some legalese phrases are harder to replace than others as they have very specific meanings but I don't accept the general tendency of some translators to say "not legalese" all the time in discussions or neutral/disagrees when the legal terms can easily be replaced by common terms.

The term "every reader" is interesting as even a court judgement is not just for lawyers but for the parties involved.





Eliza Hall Sep 24, 2019:
Translate academic terms by academic terms Posting because some people in suggestions or comments have been suggesting that a more everyday term should be used, or that it would be somehow wrong to use an academic term to translate this.

But it's a question of register. Don't we all agree that we're supposed to keep the register of the source text? So if you're translating an academic article that uses academic jargon in FR, you should use academic jargon in EN.

Juridicité is an academic term. EN scholarly articles in the areas of law and legal anthropology use the term juridicity. So why are we looking for something that the "man on the street" could understand? If we were translating a medical article, we wouldn't translate "gastro-entérite" as "stomach flu."

Proposed translations

+3
1 day 10 hrs
Selected

Juridicity

Honestly I would stick with this. It's a very specific legal jargon term that is used in scholarly texts, but if that's the type of text you're translating, that's what you should use.

It means "legality" or "legalness" in the sense of "is the system we are discussing legal in nature" (as opposed to legality in the sense of "is the action we're discussing legal to do"). A few links:

"Some Critical Comments on the Juridicity of Lex Mercatoria"
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1805805

"Where is the Law Living? Juridicity and Methods of Research in the Works of Susan Silbey"
https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_DRS1_100_0645--where-is...

"Juridicity as a theme in French legal philosophy"
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01106125

"Juridicity in the Church: A Critical Study of the Different Methodological Approaches to the Question of the Existence of the Juridical Factor in the Church"
https://books.google.com/books/about/Juridicity_in_the_Churc...


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Note added at 8 days (2019-09-26 15:46:30 GMT)
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Big picture, regardless of tone, the correct translation has to fit the definition in the Asker's text: "juridicity" is the capacity of social practices to "répondre à une finalité par une contrainte." In other words, their capacity of promoting the achievement of a goal by imposing a constraint that makes it easier or more desirable to achieve that goal.

Legal example: to promote public safety and accountability, we want cars to be in good operating condition and covered by car insurance (the goals). We therefore impose constraints that make the vast majority of people meet those goals: annual inspections, hefty tickets if you drive without a current inspection, hefty tickets and potentially jail if you drive without insurance (the constraints).

Social example: in cultures where people share the goal of universal or near-universal marital fidelity, people impose intense social stigma on married people who cheat, and on the people they cheat with.

This is what juridicity means: functioning LIKE a set of laws. Not actually BEING a set of laws, and not being enforceable in court, etc.
Peer comment(s):

agree Michael Confais (X)
5 days
Merci.
agree AllegroTrans
8 days
Merci.
agree Daryo : mostly - the "juridicity" in matters of marital fidelity IS translated in actual enforceable laws" - check the situation in Saudi Arabia, Iran (and more ...) or closer to home past laws in Europe ...
12 days
That's true in some countries. I was talking about modern Europe and America.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you all for your answers, advice and the interesting debate! In the end, I thought that juridicity was the term that best suited my context. Thank you once again! "
-2
25 mins

legal authority

My take on the definition in English.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Daryo : you could at a stretch say that these "social practices" are protected by legal authority, but in themselves they have no legal authority whatsoever - the source of "legal authority" is the law, not social customs.
11 hrs
Point taken, I like your suggestion.
disagree Eliza Hall : Daryo is right re social practices. But the biggest problem with this translation is that juridicity isn't the legal AUTHORITY of something but the legalness/legal nature of something.
8 days
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2 hrs

Legitimateness

vs. justiciability or amenability to court resolution.

One translation: (of a problem etc) amenability to being settled by legal means; legal nature (Bridge)

juricidad (ESP) - affirmative tendency in favo(u)r of the rule of law (Butterworths); legality (Robb); rightfulness (Alcaraz & Hughes).

antijuricidad (ESP): unlawfulness or lack of a justification (West).


Example sentence:

Justiciability concerns the limits upon legal issues over which a court can exercise its judicial authority

Legal rationality and legitimate authority. Under rational-legal authority, legitimacy is seen as coming from a legal order and the laws that have been enacted in it (see also natural law and legal positivism).

Peer comment(s):

agree EirTranslations
37 mins
Thanks and merci!
neutral Ben Gaia : Now "amenability to court resolution" I approve of. Words like Justiceability have only academic meaning.//Synchronicity - saw this very word in the Guardian Supreme Court report today! First time in my life though. :)
11 hrs
It's justiciability actually - a term oft-used by the US & UK courts - & had been a 'close runner'//1983 for the release of the The Police (Anglo-Am.) band's music album of Synchronicity is going way back - not so, the US science fiction film in 2015.
neutral Daryo : it's a different aspect - that would about some social practices being or not being illegal - the ST is about social practices that can or can not be imposed by legal means. //yes
12 hrs
imposed - you mean sanctioned, namely blessed, by legal means.
disagree Eliza Hall : This translation doesn't fit the definition given in the Asker's text.
8 days
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-2
6 hrs

legitimate measures

Hello
Given the precise definition in the question itself, I'd say that "legitimate measures" is right..
Peer comment(s):

disagree Daryo : = la propriété des pratiques sociales ?
5 hrs
disagree Eliza Hall : The meaning is off, and so is the tone/register.
8 days
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12 hrs
French term (edited): juridicité des pratiques sociales

legal enforceability of social practices

***juridicité***, définie comme “la propriété des pratiques sociales de répondre à une finalité par une contrainte”, pour la réalisation de ces droits.

Il semble plutôt évident qu'il est question ici uniquement de la

"juridicité des pratiques sociales"

"... répondre à une finalité par une contrainte" => "enforceability" through the legal system

For something more general, that could cover any use of "juridicité"

legalistic character ?
Peer comment(s):

agree Ben Gaia
1 hr
Thanks!
neutral Adrian MM. : This turns the - misleadingly narrow - definition on its head and confuses the imposition with the validity of 'social practices'.
3 hrs
disagree Eliza Hall : It's not about enforcing social practices in court. It's about the capacity of social practices themselves to function legalistically (i.e. as laws do) by creating constraints that support certain goals.
7 days
YES IT IS - it's about "social customs / practices" that ARE translated into actual enforceable laws / incorporated into the legal system.
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1 day 10 hrs

amenability to being settled by legal means, legal nature

It's in the Council of Europe French to English legal dictionary (F.H.S. Bridge), and I can (just about) see how it lines up with the definition.

Peer comment(s):

agree Yvonne Gallagher
20 hrs
disagree Eliza Hall : That doesn't fit the definition set forth in the Asker's text ("la propriété des pratiques sociales de répondre à une finalité par une contrainte").
6 days
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Reference comments

27 mins
Reference:

TERMIUM Plus

As ever, excellent ressources from the Canadians:

https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/i...
Note from asker:
Many thanks, Thomas - that's a very good explanation. How would you translate the term into English?
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Ph_B (X) : Certainly a good, reliable starting point.
5 mins
agree Daryo : Good starting point!
11 hrs
agree Germaine : Avec supplément de contextualisation: https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/i...
1 day 14 hrs
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6 days
Reference:

Perhaps an alternative definition would help here

juridicité

Le suffixe -ité étant formateur de substantifs qui marquent le sens qu’exprime le mot base, la juridicité désigne le caractère de ce qui est juridique. La qualification de juridique (ou, a contrario, de non juridique) exige la possession (ou non) d’un critère sûr de la juridicité.

Ce néologisme s’emploie pour désigner ou souligner la qualité de ce qui est juridique, de ce qui relève du droit. On ne met plus les guillemets pour indiquer que le mot est nouveau et qu’il entre définitivement dans l’usage.
Lorsqu’un auteur traite de la juridicité d’une règle, il examine son caractère proprement juridique, exclusion faite de toute autre considération, qu’elle soit morale, administrative, sociologique, ethnographique ou politique.

S’il s’agit de déterminer la qualité d’un ordre normatif, sa juridicité sera fonction de son appartenance exclusive à un ordre juridique. « Les questions de juridicité supposent la référence à un concept de droit auquel on confronte un objet. »
La juridicité du vocabulaire renvoie aux mots qui relèvent du vocabulaire juridique, aux termes juridiques, aux mots qui sont porteurs d’un sens juridique, qui ont un sens au regard du droit. La juridicité du sens d’un mot signifie que ce mot appartient par son sens ou par sa charge sémantique au vocabulaire du droit; il constitue l’un des signes de la spécificité du langage du droit.
Le critère de la juridicité du discours désigne le caractère juridique d’un discours donné, pour signifier que ce discours est juridique à la fois comme acte linguistique et comme acte juridique. La langue, le vocabulaire et le style même ne sont pas des éléments constitutifs nécessaires de la juridicité du message puisqu’un discours peut être dit juridique soit directement, parce qu’il établit ou dit le droit (le discours législatif et le discours juridictionnel), soit, plus généralement, parce qu’il concourt à la réalisation du droit (le discours juridique général, le discours doctrinal). Somme toute, la juridicité du discours, son caractère juridique, tient à la finalité du message. Est juridique tout message qui tend à l’établissement ou à l’application des normes de droit. En ce sens, la juridicité du message ressortit au caractère juridique de la norme énoncée.
On parle du degré de juridicité d’une expression, d’une règle, d’une proposition, d’un précepte, d’un principe, d’une théorie, d’une doctrine, d’une directive d’interprétation, d’une maxime, d’une sentence, d’un adage pour désigner la mesure dans laquelle ils se rattachent au droit. « Tous les adages ne présentent pas le même degré de juridicité. » La question première de leur juridicité est leur appartenance au droit, leur fonction dans le discours; quand ils sont porteurs d’une norme de droit, d’une règle technique, d’un principe général, d’une directive d’interprétation ou d’une explication fondamentale, ils présentent un degré de juridicité suffisant.
Le champ d’investigation propre au juriste, aussi bien dire le domaine de la juridicité dans lequel il exerce son activité et oriente ses réflexions, est le droit positif.
La juridicité du signe (pour le distinguer de l’indice) est le caractère juridique que présente le signe matériel, concret, par son origine (c’est le droit qui l’a créé), par son contenu (c’est le droit qui gouverne son contenu), par son régime (c’est le droit qui régit son utilisation), par sa caractéristique fondamentale (fondée sur l’intention de communication juridique et la substance juridique du message transmis par le signe). Un signe est juridique quand il est porteur d’un message juridique, par exemple l’enseigne commerciale ou la borne qui délimite un terrain.
Pour un éclairage théorique sur les différents sens du mot juridicité dans la perspective de la théorie et de la sociologie du droit, se reporter au Dictionnaire encyclopédique de théorie et de sociologie du droit publié sous la direction d’André-Jean Arnaud.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Eliza Hall
3 days 14 hrs
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