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Mar 23, 2019 19:45
5 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term

take advantage of this Baron

English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
Hello,

I need help of native speakers to sort out if something is really wrong with the following sentence:

"He attempted to take advantage of this Baron and his men until he touched the rock".

Context:

A person is half-surrounded by a warlord (the Baron) and his men. There's a large stone at his back, and he intends to get to the other side of that stone, but he is in a semi-circle. They fight. Then something strange happens: a bright flash of light blinds them all, and they drop their weapons because the swords get hot.

Then:
"The light faded as quickly as it had come, however, and the darkness that followed seemed almost absolute. He attempted to take advantage of this Baron and his men until he touched the rock. He began to edge his way about it"

I would say that there should be something else between "this" and "Baron" ("this Baron" makes not much sense as there are no other barons neither in the scene nor in the book), like "this [to escape the] Baron". But I've checked a couple of editions (including the audio book), and the sentence is just the same as above. Might it be that I miss something and the sentence is OK as it is?

Source: Jack of Shadows by R. Zelazny (a U. S. writer). A fantasy novel in a somewhat medieval setting.

Thanks!
Responses
3 +1 this = the specific baron
4 +2 take advantage of this (darkness) to evade the baron
3 take advantage of this (situation the) Baron and his men(were)

Discussion

Denys Dömin (asker) Mar 24, 2019:
...some Indians, who treated them well at first, and made many professions of friendship, but in the end TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THEM, while off their guard, and murdered nearly all of them...
From here: https://goo.gl/E6dwdx

It might be that Mr. Zelazny just wanted to use some bookish wording... but made it sound odd instead.


"He attempted... UNTIL" is strange to me, too. Maybe Jack attempted to grope them and strangle barehanded in the darkness before they got over the surprise, but he was disoriented and touched the stone instead? But that's too much guesswork. In any case, "THIS Baron" was the part that troubled me most of all.

Thank you, everyone! You were really helpful.
Björn Vrooman Mar 24, 2019:
Hello Tony First off, thanks! Honestly wasn't sure.

To sum it up a bit, there are only three instances of "take advantage of" in the book. First, there's a great glow, almost right before he attacks the Baron and his men, and it says: "Quickly, he dropped his eyes. Whatever the nature of the thing, it was senseless not to take advantage of the opportunity it had provided." (i.e., distraction).

Second as below.

Third is just a page or so later; a blaze and then: "Before he could take advantage of shadows, the light dimmed and darkness came again."

This is why I thought of take advantage + shadows in the first place.

Denys said: "....but there was only starlight, enough to discern something, but not enough to cast a shadow..." before pointing to the sequence of events.

But that's the issue: It does say "...attempted to take advantage of..." in the example he gave; it doesn't say this was helpful. And trying to take advantage of people's shadows is something someone named Jack of Shadows would do, no?

As said below, there were no rewrites, so this may well be some kind of mistake. But in two different versions? Is it even a translator's job to figure this out?

Best wishes
Tony M Mar 24, 2019:
@ Björn Yes, of course we'd say that in GB! Though it would probably raise a snigger, if it were a lady consultant! Because the meaning would be "take advantage of the opportunity to interact with the consultant during her presnece"

The point is that HERE, there is no circumstance in which the person could sensibly take advantage of the Baron — in what way? Stand behind him to protect him from flying arrows? Ask his advice about investment strategies? Have a cup of wine and tell jokes?
Björn Vrooman Mar 24, 2019:
@Denys
Feel free to do that. I was merely trying to figure out why the word was changed at a later date.

Here's a tidbit that you may find interesting:
"Zelazny wrote it in first draft, with no rewrites. The novel was serialized in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction in 1971 and published in book form that same year. It was nominated for...

The text of the serialization and the published book are slightly different. A copy-editing error garbled a conversation between Jack and Morningstar in chapter 6; the correct version appeared in the original magazine appearance and has been reprinted on pages..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_Shadows

The first sentence does, indeed, point to some text missing, albeit it wouldn't be a misprint. The second paragraph, however, seems to indicate that it may have been the copy editor's fault.

As for "...I have only ever seen or heard 'take advantage of someone' when..." and "...that it is very unusual to say...," I can only say that, IIRC, it's not that uncommon in American English. One ex. from McGraw Hill is: "Please take advantage of the consultant while she is here in the office." Would you say that in BrE?

Best wishes
Helena Chavarria Mar 24, 2019:
I also read quite a long excerpt and I found the language rather strange, which is why I think it's 'take advantage of the Baron'.

However, I admit that I have only ever seen or heard 'take advantage of someone' when the meaning is 'to treat someone unfairly'.
Yvonne Gallagher Mar 24, 2019:
I agree with Tony that it is very unusual to say "take advantage of someone" . I also don't see how anyone is throwing shadows in almost absolute darkness? Makes no sense at all. There is absolutely no sense of him "jumping from shadow to shadow" at all and I read quite a long excerpt of the book. The Baron and his men are in front of him and he is backing away.
The fact is that misprints are actually not that unusual and the scenario of using the darkness to evade the Baron is far more plausible, since that is what he actually does. (And he looks back and sees the Baron still in the same position in another flash of light.)
Denys Dömin (asker) Mar 24, 2019:
@Bjorn Yes, the Baron WOULD cast a shadow - but there was only starlight, enough to discern something, but not enough to cast a shadow. And this time Jack escaped the normal way: on his feet around the stone and away into the night, while Baron was busy negotiating borders with his magician neighbor.

You wouldn't mind then if I select Helena's answer, would you?
Björn Vrooman Mar 24, 2019:
@Helena
If you only type in "He attempted to take advantage of" (including quotation marks), you get back six results (at least, I did) and the book to which you linked isn't among them. So, I'm glad my suggestion works. Google is really odd sometimes.

@Denys
I'm still trying to get something done for work, so I won't be able to post anything for a day from now on. Overall, I'd agree with Helena because I don't think there's a whole lot of words missing.

I only read an excerpt of the book. Does the Baron not cast a shadow? That's what I was trying to get at. The darkness was near or almost absolute--it wasn't pitch-black, was it? I read a few pages, quickly, but I thought while they were distracted, he "jumped" from shadow to shadow to get away.

Best
Denys Dömin (asker) Mar 24, 2019:
@Björn Thanks a lot, a brilliant solution! The 1971 version is much more clear, indeed.

Just for the record, here's the direct link: https://goo.gl/JtPs77

Would you care to provide an answer below so that I could grade it?

And yes, Jack of Shadows (the protagonist) is, well, a master of shadows and uses them in different ways, so your guess is very plausible, indeed. But I'm not sure if he could find any shadows in the near-absolute darkness, that was his main problem in that situation. Please pay attention to the order of the events (first the light fades and the darkness becomes almost absolute, THEN Jack attempts to take advantage. And this happens in a land of eternal night, so there are no shadows without artificial sources of light)
Tony M Mar 24, 2019:
@ Asker Yes, you can say 'take advantage of a person' — but it does rather imply a more complex scenario that what appears tp be the situation here, in order to understand in what way they might take advantage of someone.
It is also used in one particualr set expression, perhaps now rather dated, where a man (usually) may be said to have 'taken advantage of" a woman (usually) — a euphemism, really for 'pressing his suit' or in other words seducing her.
Clearly that colloquial meaning wouldn't apply here!
Helena Chavarria Mar 24, 2019:
I found it without any trouble! https://books.google.es/books?id=R5G0AAAAIAAJ&q="to take adv...
Björn Vrooman Mar 24, 2019:
@Helena It's a real pain, though :) Basically, you need to type in exactly what I posted below. If you add or remove something, you might not find the book.

Alphabet may not want to hear it, but Google's search engine is far from perfect.

Best
Helena Chavarria Mar 24, 2019:
@Björn Yesterday I tried to find a different version of the book but it didn't occur to me to go to Google Books. Thank you for sharing your findings.
Björn Vrooman Mar 24, 2019:
Denys "to utilize someone or something to the fullest extent"
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/take advantage of (some...

Isn't it called Jack of Shadows? I've read a bit of the 2016 version and it occurred to me that he might use their shadows to escape, no?

The first sentence in this chapter: "Spots dancing before his eyes, Jack sought shadows."

You can't tell me that doesn't sound plausible.

Best
Denys Dömin (asker) Mar 24, 2019:
take advantage of this/him As to "take advantage of someone" (instead of "something") mentioned in the comments below: of course I'm not a native speaker, but it seems to me that this is a possible (though definitely odd) wording even for this context (not only as "use someone unfairly")...
Björn Vrooman Mar 24, 2019:
Hold on Please type in "to take advantage of" "until he touched the rock" in GoogleBooks (including the quotation marks!). The second Ghit should be the "The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction 41" from 1971(!).

Then, please have a look a this collection of books:
https://www.antiqbook.com/search.php?action=search&author=Ze...

Click on the image of the seventh item on the list. You'll see that "Jack of Shadows" is more than 40 years old.

Now, go back to the GBook link. You can't really get a preview, but you can type in "to take advantage of" + "until he touched the rock" again (including quotation marks).

You'll see that in the original story, the previous sentence ended with "near-absolute," not "almost absolute" and that "this Baron" used to be "the Baron."

Best wishes
Denys Dömin (asker) Mar 24, 2019:
@Tony Thank you, much appreciated!
Tony M Mar 23, 2019:
@ Asker On the face of it, I agree, this doesn't really make sense; it does indeed seem as if some text is missing — possibly a whole line, which is a plausible error mechanism.
Though even a much shorter omission could work; I'd favour something like this:
"He attempted to take advantage of this to get past / evade the Baron and his men until he touched the rock."

I do find the use of EN slightly odd overall, in particular expressions like "He began to edge his way about it" — where I would more normally expect to read 'around it'

Responses

+1
7 mins
Selected

this = the specific baron

I think 'this' is used as a determiner.

Used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced.

‘don't listen to this guy’

More example sentences
1.1 Referring to the nearer of two things close to the speaker (the other, if specified, being identified by ‘that’)
‘this one or that one?’

2Referring to a specific thing just mentioned.

‘there was a court case resulting from this incident’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/this

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 45 mins (2019-03-23 20:31:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

We often say 'this' when we're referring to a specific person.

'And who is this teacher you were telling me about?'
'This guy will never fail to amaze me.'
'There was this man who lived round the corner...' (telling a story)
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Even if this were meant to be a determinant, 'Baron' would be a curious object for the transitive verb 'to take advantage of'. So he "took advantage of this / the / a / any Baron and his men"? It doesn't make sense at all!
2 hrs
Tony, thank you for your disagreement, though I'm afraid I don't agree with you :)
agree writeaway
4 hrs
Thank you, writeaway :)
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : Sorry Helena, I really didn't want to disagree but feel I have to now. You've admitted you know the usual meaning of "take advantage of someone" is so I don't understand how you're squaring that with this context? It's senseless as Tony said.
15 hrs
Yvonne, thank you for taking the time to disagree. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor inclination to enter into a discussion, although Björn's findings and comments are very clear.
agree acetran
20 hrs
Thank you, acetran :)
agree Björn Vrooman : The DE translator (seen it) does exactly what I was afraid of: He changes the sentence almost completely and "attempted to" is missing entirely. Instead, please see para. starting with Shadowjack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jack_of_Shadows
1 day 22 hrs
Björn, thank you for all your hard work, though I feel bad about taking the points. You deserve them!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Odd as it is, this seems to be the original author's wording without any later omissions (though maybe not the IDEA). So be it. Thanks. (And yep, I've seen the German translation, too. And Polish, by the way - they've also rewritten it according to their understanding of the scene to make it sound natural in the target language)."
24 mins

take advantage of this (situation the) Baron and his men(were)

... to take advantage of THIS(the position, situation, event, in which the Baron and his men were at that point).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I agree with your assumption that there must be some text missing, though I doubt it would be as complicated a multiple omission as you suggest.
1 hr
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : you seem rather confused as to what "this" is referring to? And you're adding far too much.
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
15 hrs

take advantage of this (darkness) to evade the baron

I think it has to be a misprint. It does happen and I'm sure we have all come across errors like this. And sometimes the error is not caught before reprinting or republication.

So, after the the brigh flash of light where they are all blinded there is almost absolute (or pitch) darkness and Jack decides to take advantage of this (=darkness) to evade the baron and his men who are forming a semicircle in front of him. He manages to get to the other side of the rock and slip away unnoticed as it is still dark...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 55 mins (2019-03-25 20:41:07 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

It should be making sense! That is surely the purpose of a translation "to sound natural in the target language"?
Note from asker:
Thank you very much, Yvonne! I guess this might well be the idea of that sentence. However, odd as it is, this seems to be the (almost) original author's wording without any later omissions (though maybe not the IDEA). (And yep, I've seen the German translation, too. And Polish, by the way - they've also rewritten it according to their understanding of the scene to make it sound natural in the target language).
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Indeed, as I already suggested in discussion; I agree, too, with your supposition that it is a misprint, and that a single chunk of missing text is the most plausible error mechanism.
14 mins
Many thanks:-) didn't notice Dbox. Working on phone
agree Alison MacG : This DE translation (Jack aus den Schatten) also agrees with you. ..und die Dunkelheit, die nun folgte, schien fast absolut. Er machte sie sich zunutze, indem er sich von dem Baron und dessen Männern zurückzog, bis er mit dem Rücken gegen den Stein stieß.
1 day 2 hrs
Many thanks Alison. The other suggestions really make no sense to me
Something went wrong...
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