Jan 19, 2019 11:00
5 yrs ago
6 viewers *
French term
traiter de manière loyale
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Luxembourg court decision
Bonjour à tous,
Donc, je traduire l'arrête une Cour luxembourgeoise portant sur une affaire de violence domestique. En gros, le mari pensait que la femme le trompait et l'a tabassé. Plusieurs fois dans le document je vois la phrase qui suit:
"X (l'épouse) a déclaré que Y (l'époux) l'a menacée de mort si elle ne le traitait pas de manière loyale."
Vu le context, j'ai envie de traduire "ne le tratait pas de manière loyale" par "if she was unfaithful (ou bien "not faithful") to him", mais je n'ai jamais vu cette expréssion "traiter de manière loyale" pour parler de fidelité entre conjoints et j'aimerais avoir l'avis d'autres gens.
A votre à vis, est-ce bien le sens, ou bien est-ce qu'elle veut dire plutôt "if she did not treat him fairly" ?
Merci d'avance.
Jeff
Donc, je traduire l'arrête une Cour luxembourgeoise portant sur une affaire de violence domestique. En gros, le mari pensait que la femme le trompait et l'a tabassé. Plusieurs fois dans le document je vois la phrase qui suit:
"X (l'épouse) a déclaré que Y (l'époux) l'a menacée de mort si elle ne le traitait pas de manière loyale."
Vu le context, j'ai envie de traduire "ne le tratait pas de manière loyale" par "if she was unfaithful (ou bien "not faithful") to him", mais je n'ai jamais vu cette expréssion "traiter de manière loyale" pour parler de fidelité entre conjoints et j'aimerais avoir l'avis d'autres gens.
A votre à vis, est-ce bien le sens, ou bien est-ce qu'elle veut dire plutôt "if she did not treat him fairly" ?
Merci d'avance.
Jeff
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +2 | behave loyally towards [him] | B D Finch |
5 -1 | to treat fairly | HAZEM EL-SHAREEF |
5 -1 | be loyal to him | Eliza Hall |
4 -1 | remain faithful | Yvonne Gallagher |
Proposed translations
+2
4 hrs
Selected
behave loyally towards [him]
I don't believe that the phrase "traiter de manière loyale" means the same as "être loyale à son mari". It seems far broader. Men threaten to or actually kill their wives or girlfriends for reasons other than sexual infidelity and a controlling narcissist can consider slights far short of infidelity as disloyalty that merits death. Examples of such slights might be supporting another person in an argument, being friendly towards (or even just speaking to) someone the husband considered an enemy, refusing to lie or commit perjury for the husband. The biggest perceived disloyalty might be threatening to leave.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/31/men-kill-wom...
"According to the Domestic Violence Prevention Centre, women attempt to leave an abusive relationship on average between five and seven times before successfully and permanently doing so, and the time when a woman leaves her abusive partner is also when she is in most danger of being harmed."
https://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/loyale et...
particulier son article 6 concernant le. [...] traitement des données de façon loyale et licite, leur collecte pour des finalités [...] déterminées, explicites et légitimes,.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2019-01-19 15:38:56 GMT)
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Alternative: act with loyalty towards him.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2019-01-19 16:44:38 GMT)
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@Asker
Yes, loyalty can include fulfilling the duty of being a charming hostess or companion on a business trip, cooking cordon bleu dinners etc., generally supporting to the husband's status.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/31/men-kill-wom...
"According to the Domestic Violence Prevention Centre, women attempt to leave an abusive relationship on average between five and seven times before successfully and permanently doing so, and the time when a woman leaves her abusive partner is also when she is in most danger of being harmed."
https://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/loyale et...
particulier son article 6 concernant le. [...] traitement des données de façon loyale et licite, leur collecte pour des finalités [...] déterminées, explicites et légitimes,.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2019-01-19 15:38:56 GMT)
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Alternative: act with loyalty towards him.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2019-01-19 16:44:38 GMT)
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@Asker
Yes, loyalty can include fulfilling the duty of being a charming hostess or companion on a business trip, cooking cordon bleu dinners etc., generally supporting to the husband's status.
Note from asker:
I agree with your analysis B.D. The police report states that after beating her, the husband refused to take her to the hospital and said that she could hide her injuries with make-up and he was going to force her to accopany him on a business trip she had refused to go on. So, to my understanding his idea of being "loyal" also includes not denouncing him, hiding the bruises he had given her and Following her where ever he commanded. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Ph_B (X)
: with your explanation (but did you mean "...the same as "être fidèle à son mari"...?) and esp. with the alternative you suggest - see discussion :-)
1 hr
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Thanks Ph. No, I didn't because I am fairly clear that "être fidèle" would be about being sexually faithful. However, while "être loyale" would include sexual fidelity, I don't think "traiter de manière loyale" necessarily does.
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agree |
Ben Gaia
: I agree with the reasoning.
6 hrs
|
Thanks Ben
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neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Ph_B suggested this "behave with loyalty" hours ago... I still think closest synonym to disloyal is unfaithful in this context//She refused to go on the trip so he doesn't have that much control over her...
7 hrs
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I disagree, "traiter de manière loyale" is a formulation that covers what a controlling and abusive partner might perceive as disrespect and failure to support him.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks very much for your help, BD ! I think your response is the way I can least commit to any specific kind of "loyalty"(fidelity, etc.)."
-1
2 hrs
remain faithful
I agree with your initial thoughts and Carol's.
I really can't see "loyal" being translated as anything other than "faithful" in this context.
I agree that the use of the word is rather strange and would also expect "fidèle" here but maybe it is linked to the idea of being steadfast and devoted to the husband=loyal or constant in that way.
However, I still think it's more about her straying from him, being "unfaithful", given his threat to kill her.
I definitely wouldn't use "treat him unfairly"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faithful
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/loyal
http://cnrtl.fr/definition/fidèle
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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-19 13:06:18 GMT)
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in regards to "devoir de loyauté entre époux" yes, that may have influenced the choice of the word "loyal" here but I don't believe a literal translation would work in English
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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-19 13:10:06 GMT)
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In English a woman might say something like "he expects me to stay devoted to him (alone) and look at no one else and he threatened to kill me if I was at all unfaithful..."
I really can't see "loyal" being translated as anything other than "faithful" in this context.
I agree that the use of the word is rather strange and would also expect "fidèle" here but maybe it is linked to the idea of being steadfast and devoted to the husband=loyal or constant in that way.
However, I still think it's more about her straying from him, being "unfaithful", given his threat to kill her.
I definitely wouldn't use "treat him unfairly"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faithful
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/loyal
http://cnrtl.fr/definition/fidèle
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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-19 13:06:18 GMT)
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in regards to "devoir de loyauté entre époux" yes, that may have influenced the choice of the word "loyal" here but I don't believe a literal translation would work in English
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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-19 13:10:06 GMT)
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In English a woman might say something like "he expects me to stay devoted to him (alone) and look at no one else and he threatened to kill me if I was at all unfaithful..."
Note from asker:
Merci de votre aide, Yvonne. |
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Lara Barnett
: Yes, as I stated in the discussion box./ A while before in my memory.
1 hr
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long after I posted here...//around half an hour in fact. My added note was in reponse to Ph_B's first note, seen after I'd posted mentioning Carol. What's your point anyway?
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disagree |
Eliza Hall
: This was my first thought too, but he believes she's already been unfaithful, so "remain faithful" doesn't accurately portray what he was trying to say. He wasn't saying stay faithful, he was saying be faithful.
6 hrs
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I don't follow your reasoning behind the disagree? Even if he thought she was cheating on him, these are HER words not his so she's repeating the threat he made
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-1
8 hrs
to treat fairly
to treat fairly
Example sentence:
to treat fairly
to treat fairly
Note from asker:
Merci de votre aide, Hazem. |
-1
8 hrs
be loyal to him
It means to not be unfaithful, and they could've said "fidèle" in French, but since they didn't I wouldn't translate it to something with that root (faithful/unfaithful).
"l'a menacée de mort si elle ne le traitait pas de manière loyale" = "threatened her with death if she would not be loyal to him."
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Note added at 8 hrs (2019-01-19 19:27:41 GMT)
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PS I agree it could be broader than sexual fidelity. Whether it actually is broader isn't clear. "Be loyal" is as general in English as the French original is -- it could mean either.
"l'a menacée de mort si elle ne le traitait pas de manière loyale" = "threatened her with death if she would not be loyal to him."
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Note added at 8 hrs (2019-01-19 19:27:41 GMT)
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PS I agree it could be broader than sexual fidelity. Whether it actually is broader isn't clear. "Be loyal" is as general in English as the French original is -- it could mean either.
Note from asker:
Merci de votre aide, Eliza. |
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: How is this an improvement on Bdf's? At least she makes a case. Don't agree that: "Be loyal" is as general in English as the French original is" erm, no, not at all general in this context.
3 hrs
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Discussion
"betray definition: 1. to not be loyal to your country or a person, often by doing something harmful such as helping their enemies"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/betray
Thanks for your opinion.
Being faithful and being loyal are not the same thing, but I can well imagine a husband thinking that his wife owed him loyalty, as servants owe loyalty to their masters (to put it a bit tendentiously).
Thanks for your opinion.
It seems he threatened to kill her if she was unfaithful to him