Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 13, 2019:

@Everybody Thank you all for your insights. First, responding to Lara, my page configuration seems to be okay, except one page where I had posted a long URL. Other than that, everything looks good. Now back to business, I have read your comments with great interest. Thanks for pointing out the nuances of meaning between "rub" and "brush". I think most of us agree that "brush" sounds better than "rub", and perhaps more poetic too. Having in mind what Katarina wisely pointed out, I'll settle with "brushes against". I guess we don't want to get to a point where the intended meaning is diluted or betrayed ("traddutore traditore"). In the case of "to whom I think I am", it seems to me that the PT line is somewhat convoluted, it's not very clear what he means. No matter how we "improve" any of the suggested translations, the translation itself is a shot in the dark. Thank you all and enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Lara Barnett Jan 13, 2019:

@ Domini Maybe, it is up to the speaker how they try to use it. But "brushes against my dream" does not shine a beautiful light on the idea: "brushes against" is quite harsh, whereas (as an example) "softly brushes the edge of ..."[something] has a much smoother and gentler sound.
At the end of the day, this is all a question of nuance, and if you can't hear it then it helps to read more to get used to the actual usage of language, rather than just the prescriptive meaning (or literal translations) of language.

Domini Lucas Jan 12, 2019:

re brushes against It can be used as Lara says but is also used where the ‘brushing against’ is welcome. In the sense of lightly touch. I am confident of that but am not in a place where I can dig out references just now.

Katarina Peters Jan 12, 2019:

@Lara Your comments may be valid, but this is a translation and one really has to be as true to the original as possible, or it is transformed into something else, which is not the intention of the poet.

Lara Barnett Jan 12, 2019:

@ Oliver Are you still seeing a strange page configuration. I have a strange page configuration on every page of the Proz website.

Lara Barnett Jan 12, 2019:

Brushes against / To whom I think I am I think this term is a bit problematic because it is often associated with something a little intrusive, or something for which you are thankful did not get too close for too long. For example, if somebody walks past and touches me, I would say "they brushed against me", but would be understood as something that I would not want to linger.

"To whom I think I am" is also a bit clumsy. I agree it could work grammatically, but it needs to be a little refined to achieve any sort of poetic fluidity.

The problem here overall is that although you can be creative and find either positive or even neutral terms that could work in a poem, the whole point of poetry is to create a vision or feeling through the words. So any clumsiness or faulty nuance could unbalance the whole thing.

Domini Lucas Jan 12, 2019:

@Katrina and @Oliveira I definitely prefer brushes

Katarina Peters Jan 12, 2019:

@Oliveira et al "I am" and "dream" is not a perfect rhyme either, but it fits perfectly.
Thus:
She dreams, she has doubts,
I raise her to whom I think I am
And her misty, heavenly voice
Brushes against my dream

Lara Barnett Jan 12, 2019:

@ Oliver Yes, Rubs is not a very poetic word and provides no beauty or emotion to the poetic idea here. It is important to look at nuance of a word when translating something as finely written as this, or there is no translation to be read.

Domini Lucas Jan 12, 2019:

@Oliver - rubs up agaisnt my dream I agree with Lara that this could be improved

Lara Barnett Jan 12, 2019:

@. Oliver But why put "voice" at the end when "doubts" and "clouds" rhyme so well together? I don't agree with the change.

I also think "rubs up against my dream" sounds a bit clumsy.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 12, 2019:

@Katarina Indeed, I think "voice" at the end sounds better. The quasi-rhyme will be lost in the process. Oh, well... Thank you both.

Katarina Peters Jan 12, 2019:

@Oliver Very nice!
I would change the 4th line to "and her misty, heavenly voice"
(clouds and voice would still give you a "near" rhyme)

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 12, 2019:

Putting wo and two together, I came up with this translation. What do you think? Any suggestions?

She dreams, she has doubts,
I raise her to whom (I think) I am
And her voice, heavenly as the clouds,
Rubs up against my dream

Lara, I think your comment on the use of "I guess" (as an aside) makes sense. I tried to incorporate ii by putting "I think" (suggested by Katarina) in parentheses.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 11, 2019:

@Katarina That seems like a plausible interpretation IMHO. Am i reading a certain arrogance on his part? Poor Ophelia. In another poem he referred to her as a "demente" who passed by on her way to some sort of crazy asylum. Anyway, I guess by putting together bits and pieces eventually we'll get to the most plausible interpretation. But we'll never know for sure. In a sense, literary translation is pie in the sky.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 11, 2019:

@Lara Indeed, it was a typo. I meant "fog", not "flog". I agree that--even in PT--fog has more of a negative (than positive) connotation. "Voice shrouded in mist" sounds like a good workaround if I can make it fit in the context. Thank you, Lara. :-) As far as "suponho-me", it beats me how he's using the verb in its reflexive form, which is very unusual to start with. I checked the Aulete dictionary, and this is how the verb is defined:

Considerar(-se), julgar(-se) [td. : Supus que ele tivesse dito a verdade] [tdp. : Supor -se inteligente: Ele me supunha capaz de desafiá-lo],

which roughly translates as "consider (oneself), judge (oneself)". Ex. I judge myself to be ignorant of some of Pessoa's musings. (No kidding) In the above example, "He judged that I was capable of challenging him." (Hopefully, not Pessoa about me.) I guess we need a bit of humor as we try to solve this mystery. I was typing "albeit", and all of a sudden I looked at my screen and it says "Alberto" (no kidding), which is probably for Alberto Caeiro (Pessoa's alter ego). I couldn't help laughing. Anyway, I appreciate your help. Still not sure which way to go.

Katarina Peters Jan 11, 2019:

@Oliveira and Lara
This is how I read it: Sonha, duvida, elevo-a até quem me suponho = She dreams, she has doubts, so I raise her to whom I think I am. In other words: I raise her up to my level, or to the level that I suppose that I am.

Lara Barnett Jan 11, 2019:

Me suponho Possibly due to my lack of sufficient knowledge in Portuguese I do not fully understand this phrase properly to try to translate it. To me, "Me suponho" looks more like something the speaker/writer is saying to himself in order to comment on his other thoughts in this poem (for example, when we add "I guess" or "I suppose" after we say something, putting no particular emphasis of meaning on "I guess" as it is just an aside). Could this be correct? Or is their more weight on the poets use of "me suponho" than I am reading?

Lara Barnett Jan 11, 2019:

Voz de nevoa Do you mean "Fog"? (You put "FLOG", which means nothing).
Aside from that spelling mistake, to sound like "fog" sounds a very pejorative to me. Symbolically "Fog" itself in UK is not seen in a positive light, whereas I believe that the Portuguese is trying to give her voice a more ethereal, mysterious and beautiful tone. Therefore I think something like "misty-voiced" or "a voice shrouded in mist" or even "a voice as heavenly as the clouds" perhaps.....

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 11, 2019:

@Lara I'm still working on the second stanza, which seems a little convoluted to me. As is, I don't have a translation that I feel proud of sharing. (Otherwise, I would.) The first line, for example, has two verbs in the third person singular, followed by "elevo-a" (I elevate her), which makes me believe they are also referring to the girl he loves. Is this how you're reading too? "Voz de névoa" was another sticky point. "Voice of fog"? As far as "roçar", I'll probably go with something along these lines: http://dreamstop.com/rub-dream-symbol/ Any suggestions in both or either case? The whole stanza is pretty much open for meaning negotiation. By far, this is the hardest I've come to because it's very concise and somewhat confusing.

Lara Barnett Jan 11, 2019:

@ Oliveira I really think that anything you put will depend on the surrounding text (i.e. how you structure this), especially that which comes before this phrase. Can you give an indication about how you are translating (at least a small part of) the surrounding context.?