Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
s\'en défendre
English translation:
save that they may challenge them
Added to glossary by
Josephine Cassar
Jan 31, 2017 17:52
7 yrs ago
16 viewers *
French term
s'en défendre
French to English
Bus/Financial
Real Estate
This is really a contract about a sale of a property. I know the question has been asked and answered on several sites but I think the answer is wrong. I think it means-go to court over the issue. Context: de souffrir les servitudes passives, apparentes ou occultes, continues ou discontinues, pouvant grever l'immeuble vendu, sauf à s'en défendre et à profiter en retour de celles actives, le tout s'il existe des risques et périls. Thank you.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Jan 31, 2017 18:44: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "Work" to "(none)"
Feb 1, 2017 00:41: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "s\\\'en défendre " to "s\'en défendre"
Proposed translations
+3
4 hrs
French term (edited):
s\\\'en défendre
Selected
save that they may challenge them
I think that the term should have been posted in its entirety as "sauf à s'en défendre".
www.legalknowledgescotland.com/?tag=servitudes6 Sep 2016 - All of our property and conveyancing case summaries are contained in the ..... title but a challenge to the physical extent of the servitude rights.
The following relates to France:
https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/property-right... (https://goo.gl/zwc8Tq)
"A right of way can be challenged and lost if it can be demonstrated that it has not been used for at least the past thirty years, except where by doing so it would leave the property landlocked."
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-01-31 22:28:15 GMT)
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The second reference above includes general information and advice about servitudes on French properties.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-01-31 22:31:46 GMT)
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I've posted this answer rather than agree with Daryo's because I think the form the challenge might take should be left undefined.
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Note added at 18 hrs (2017-02-01 12:35:54 GMT)
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Re Asker's note
I'd seen some of the TC and WordRef entries and some people got completely tied up in knots by using "se defendre de" in the (inappropriate) sense of stopping oneself from doing something. "Unless relief is sought" would be hard to use here in a grammatically correct way. It also means or strongly implies using the courts. As I noted below to Peter, there are other ways of challenging a servitude, including persuading the party claiming it that it's not worth them going to court over the matter because it would cost too much and/or they'd probably lose.
To give an irrelevant example, until about the 1980s London taxi drivers were legally required to carry a bale of hay on their vehicle to feed their horse. They challenged this by simply either not carrying a bale of hay, or carrying an imaginary bale for the imaginary horse, depending on how you want to interpret it.
www.legalknowledgescotland.com/?tag=servitudes6 Sep 2016 - All of our property and conveyancing case summaries are contained in the ..... title but a challenge to the physical extent of the servitude rights.
The following relates to France:
https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/property-right... (https://goo.gl/zwc8Tq)
"A right of way can be challenged and lost if it can be demonstrated that it has not been used for at least the past thirty years, except where by doing so it would leave the property landlocked."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-01-31 22:28:15 GMT)
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The second reference above includes general information and advice about servitudes on French properties.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-01-31 22:31:46 GMT)
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I've posted this answer rather than agree with Daryo's because I think the form the challenge might take should be left undefined.
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Note added at 18 hrs (2017-02-01 12:35:54 GMT)
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Re Asker's note
I'd seen some of the TC and WordRef entries and some people got completely tied up in knots by using "se defendre de" in the (inappropriate) sense of stopping oneself from doing something. "Unless relief is sought" would be hard to use here in a grammatically correct way. It also means or strongly implies using the courts. As I noted below to Peter, there are other ways of challenging a servitude, including persuading the party claiming it that it's not worth them going to court over the matter because it would cost too much and/or they'd probably lose.
To give an irrelevant example, until about the 1980s London taxi drivers were legally required to carry a bale of hay on their vehicle to feed their horse. They challenged this by simply either not carrying a bale of hay, or carrying an imaginary bale for the imaginary horse, depending on how you want to interpret it.
Note from asker:
| You're right about including 'sauf'. In fact, I had found the part where you mention that there is a thirty-year period. In fact, I was going to use 'challenge-unless one challenges them.' The ansers rovided in Proz. and TranslatorCafé and Wordreferenceforums. here are the answers-the third one comes closest:https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=sauf+a+s'en+defendre |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Peter LEGUIE
: Yes, on closer examination, I think this is better. If I am not mistaken, "to challenge" has a rather common meaning as well as being a term used in courts. I would like to have your opinion on this subject.
13 hrs
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Thanks Peter. Challenge might be by planting a prickly hedge, fencing, writing a letter or going to court to claim a supposed "servitude" is ill-founded or expired. "Challenge" is the same term in or out of court.
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| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
17 hrs
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Thanks Gallagy
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| neutral |
Daryo
: the ONLY way to legally get rid of servitudes is through legal action, whatever forms of "action directe" might also be effective in the real world ... // in a legal document, there is a presumption that thing are done according to laws ...
20 hrs
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Not if they're not registered, lapsed, if the beneficiary agrees in writing that their claim is unfounded or to accept a consideration for extinguishing the servitude by themselves going through the formal procedures.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: correct to leave the means of challenge undefined
23 hrs
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Thanks AT
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks"
+1
1 hr
French term (edited):
sauf à s'en défendre
unless they take [legal] action against them
meaning: ... and it's up top the Buyer to take legal action to have them removed
IOW the buyer must submit to all servitudes attached to the property, unless the buyer takes legal action to have them removed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servitude_in_civil_law
sample dating from 1874:
1° De souffrir les servitudes passives, apparentes et occultes, continues ou discontinues qui peuvent grever l’immeuble vendu, sauf à eux à s’en défendre [et à faire valoir celles actives qui peuvent exister en sa faveur, le tout à leurs risques et périls sans aucun recours à cet égard contre les vendeurs qui déclarent ne connaître l’existence d’aucune servitude pouvant grever cet immeuble.]
www.apsa-poitiers.fr/doc/documents/irjs/irjs-1874-acte-de-v...
point being made: the Buyer must comply with all servitudes - if the Buyer is not happy about them, it's up to the Buyer to take legal action to get rid of them - it's not the Seller's problem.
IOW the buyer must submit to all servitudes attached to the property, unless the buyer takes legal action to have them removed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servitude_in_civil_law
sample dating from 1874:
1° De souffrir les servitudes passives, apparentes et occultes, continues ou discontinues qui peuvent grever l’immeuble vendu, sauf à eux à s’en défendre [et à faire valoir celles actives qui peuvent exister en sa faveur, le tout à leurs risques et périls sans aucun recours à cet égard contre les vendeurs qui déclarent ne connaître l’existence d’aucune servitude pouvant grever cet immeuble.]
www.apsa-poitiers.fr/doc/documents/irjs/irjs-1874-acte-de-v...
point being made: the Buyer must comply with all servitudes - if the Buyer is not happy about them, it's up to the Buyer to take legal action to get rid of them - it's not the Seller's problem.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Peter LEGUIE
: Yes, or possibly "to deny them through going into court action", but you indeed have it right IMO.
1 hr
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Merci!
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: right idea I think, bt one doesn't take action against servitudes; needs some rephrasing
1 hr
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any idea how to rephrase it? something shorter than "taking legal action in order to have them/servitude removed" ?
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-1
8 hrs
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
34
save finding any protection from them
Literal translation based on the common acceptation of the verb 'se défendre' in French.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: doesn't make sense; one doesn't "protect onseself" from servitudes; you either accept them and comply with them or you try, either by agreement or otherwise, to get them removed
19 hrs
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1 day 1 hr
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
74
s'en défende = se défendre de quelque chose : to deny oneself the right to...
I think that one of the ordinary meanings applies here and that the term, as used in this context, is not being applied as a legal term at all.
"Se défendre de quelque chose" can mean "to forbid oneself from" doing something, making use of something, of having access to something. In context, I think that it is about X denying themselves the right to make use of the first easements listed and instead, to enjoy the benefit of those which are active ("et à profiter en retour de celles actives").
The way the sentence is put together, I think it hinges on the difference between the "servitudes... pouvant grever l'immeuble vendu" (the easements... affecting the property that has been sold) and instead "profiter en retour de celles actives".
http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/défendre/22618...
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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2017-02-01 19:05:15 GMT)
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I'd like to seee the first part of the sentence to get the whole run of what has been written.
"Se défendre de quelque chose" can mean "to forbid oneself from" doing something, making use of something, of having access to something. In context, I think that it is about X denying themselves the right to make use of the first easements listed and instead, to enjoy the benefit of those which are active ("et à profiter en retour de celles actives").
The way the sentence is put together, I think it hinges on the difference between the "servitudes... pouvant grever l'immeuble vendu" (the easements... affecting the property that has been sold) and instead "profiter en retour de celles actives".
http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/défendre/22618...
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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2017-02-01 19:05:15 GMT)
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I'd like to seee the first part of the sentence to get the whole run of what has been written.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Francois Boye
: Why not 'to protect oneself from sb', which is basic French?
7 mins
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Why not? Because there is no indication that anyone is seeking to protect themselves from another individual.
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| neutral |
B D Finch
: That is a different meaning of "se defendre de" (+ verbe) and is not relevant to its use here, where it is + noun and where it is also legal boilerplate. "En" refers back to the "servitudes".
17 hrs
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Yes, that is my point; that a different reading might in fact apply. However, I have foun d other sources which make me lean towards your reading now. ;-)
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2 days 47 mins
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
74
French term (edited):
sauf à s'en défendre
whislt reserving his own rights
More in line with the chosen meaning, I have come across this on Translator's Café, which has a nice ring to it. Good UK legalese! I'm posting in spite of the fact that an answer has just been chosen, in order for this phraseing to stand out as an option for future reference.
http://www.translatorscafe.com/tcterms/FR/thQuestion.aspx?id...
SOURCE TEXT :
"- Servitudes
Le BENEFICIAIRE souffrira les servitudes passives, apparentes ou occultes, continues ou discontinues, pouvant grever les BIENS ou l’IMMEUBLE, sauf à s'en défendre et à profiter de celles actives, s'il en existe, le tout à ses risques et périls, sans aucun recours contre le PROMETTANT.
Le PROMETTANT déclare qu'il n'a créé ni laissé acquérir aucune servitude sur les BIENS objet des présentes et qu'à sa connaissance il n'en existe aucune, autre que celles éventuellement rapportées au règlement de copropriété et ses modificatifs éventuels sus-énoncés.
- Situation hypothécaire"
SUGGESTED RENDERING, all credit to Shalini Kheterpal!
"whilst reserving his own rights [and enjoying the benefits of existing ones]"
http://www.translatorscafe.com/tcterms/FR/thQuestion.aspx?id...
SOURCE TEXT :
"- Servitudes
Le BENEFICIAIRE souffrira les servitudes passives, apparentes ou occultes, continues ou discontinues, pouvant grever les BIENS ou l’IMMEUBLE, sauf à s'en défendre et à profiter de celles actives, s'il en existe, le tout à ses risques et périls, sans aucun recours contre le PROMETTANT.
Le PROMETTANT déclare qu'il n'a créé ni laissé acquérir aucune servitude sur les BIENS objet des présentes et qu'à sa connaissance il n'en existe aucune, autre que celles éventuellement rapportées au règlement de copropriété et ses modificatifs éventuels sus-énoncés.
- Situation hypothécaire"
SUGGESTED RENDERING, all credit to Shalini Kheterpal!
"whilst reserving his own rights [and enjoying the benefits of existing ones]"
Discussion
What is your understanding of ‘se défendre’ ? I looked up the legal meaning of that expression in the T.L.F.I dictionary and what I found does not necessarily mean filing a lawsuit.
3. Récuser une allégation.
a) Nier ce dont on peut être accusé. Synon. protester.Le bonhomme est aveugle et se défend de l'être (Hugo, Ruy Blas,1838, I, 5, p. 362).Il se défendit d'avoir parlé d'une façon si impertinente (A. France, Lys rouge,1894, p. 222).
b) Chercher à se disculper d'une accusation en justice. Synon. se justifier.Il refuse de répondre (...) disant qu'il est innocent et qu'il n'a pas à se défendre (Bourget, Disciple,1889, p. 38).Je n'ai pas besoin d'avocat. Je sais me défendre (Camus, Révolte Asturies,1936, II, 5, p. 420).
4. Se tirer d'affaire habilement. Synon. se débrouiller.Il avait du mal à se défendre (...) dans son espèce de commerce (Céline, Voyage,1932, p. 572).− Emploi fig. Le Music-hall de Londres se défend de son mieux (Morand, Londres,1933, p. 73).