Björn Vrooman Dec 15, 2016:

Thanks fbbest for the added explanation, and Diana: That was mainly my fault, as I did not notice the past tense for some odd reason.

In any case, thank you all for the lively discussion and have a good night.

British Diana (asker) Dec 15, 2016:

Sorry about my silence, I wrote a longish entry yesterday which I subsequently lost...... Anyway, I'd like to thank you all for the interesting discussion and input. Particularly the way the Prunkräume took up some of our attention plus the confusion about whether the Repräsentation was referring to the 18c or to today made it all a bit complex. But in the end I took all the suggestions on board and chose the "winner" because this is how I will paraphrase the issue for my Chinese guests.

Inter-Tra Dec 13, 2016:

definition The term ‘State Rooms’ is applied to those rooms that were designed and built as the public rooms of the Palace, in which monarchs **receive, reward and entertain their subjects and visiting dignitaries**. Today the State Rooms at Buckingham Palace are used extensively by The Queen and members of the Royal Family to receive and entertain their guests on State, **ceremonial and official occasions**.
https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/visit/buckinghampalace/wh...

Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2016:

Diana could just give Christa Volk a call and ask:
http://www.infranken.de/regional/kitzingen/Volkach-durch-die...

Ramey Rieger (X) Dec 12, 2016:

@ Everyone Are we agreed that...
...50sqm is too small for a stateroom?
...displays of wealth is not meant?
...civic is too specific for an international audience?
...Representativezwecke can be replaced with WHAT the rooms were used for? (sorry about the prep at the end)
...the verb could play a stronger role in defining this purpose?
...my suggestion is the best (JUST KIDDING!!!!)

Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2016:

"The house was definitely built to impress and the 3 reception rooms upstairs are where we presume he did his business plus receiving important visitors (wining and dining them) etc."

Ah, same conclusion, I guess. So considering Schelf was a merchant and the house was privately owned and primarily used for the purpose of conducting business, would "state room" be used?

The explanation here was a bit confusing, in my opinion, which is why I'm asking all of you:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/state room

On a side note, pardon the pun but we seem to get more "formal" by the hour. Diana said: "Es soll etwas sein, was auch nicht Muttersprachler (z.B. Chinesen) auf Anhieb versehen würden."

I can only speak from a "German" perspective here, but Kirsten's explanation (Schelf was a wine merchant and city official [...] Because, like an ambassador nowadays, he would have received people and done deals at home.) would be understood. I am not so sure about "civic."

Ramey Rieger (X) Dec 12, 2016:

dienten.... Taking another tack...the ornate City Palace third floor rooms (at 50sqm I can't call them staterooms, forgive me Armorel) were OPENED for formal occasions.
Perhaps changing the verb offers a clearer view?

Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2016:

@Kirsten What Diana just said, plus:
"Die Räume im Obergeschoss dienen heute wie damals Repräsentationszwecken und können auch von Privatpersonen für Feierlichkeiten oder von Firmen für Tagungen gemietet werden. "
http://www.fraenkisches-weinland.de/poi/schelfenhaus-8211/

The purpose of these rooms hasn't changed. But you're right about the past tense ("dienten"), so I will backtrack and say you may have to find a word with a broader meaning or just provide examples. Still not sure whether this is the only instance of "repräsentativ" and Diana shouldn't need to come back here to ask the same question again.

Interestingly enough, just like Diana, I can't seem to find much about what the rooms were used for. However, Volkach had a town hall as well:
"Das Rathaus war seit jeher Sitz der Verwaltung der Stadt. Im Laufe der Zeit änderte sich aber auch die Nutzung des Rathauses. Im Mittelalter und der frühen Neuzeit waren seine Aufgaben vielfältig. Das Archiv und der Stadtrat hatten ihren Sitz, ebenso wurden Festlichkeiten aller Art hier veranstaltet."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathaus_(Volkach)

This most likely means that many formal events did not take place at the Schelfenhaus.

British Diana (asker) Dec 12, 2016:

Sorry if I have been misleading I asked for Repräsentationszwecke because there already was an entry for Repräsentation.
Herr Schelf was a wealthy merchant who was also an important local VIP (he was Mayor at one time, etc.). The house was definitely built to impress and the 3 reception rooms upstairs are where we presume he did his business plus receiving important visitors (wining and dining them) etc. One room is a kind of Salon, another a dining room the third seems to have been his wife's Salon (I don't really know how to name these rooms as you may realise!). None of them are bigger than 50 sq.m.
The reference to the 1950s and to the present day are because the house has belonged to the town since the 1950s and is now used for official functions such as making people Ehrenbürger etc. Because the 18c rooms are too small, a new bigger one was added about 30 years ago and it is in this room that today's "Repräsentation" happens. BTW it is furnished in a Kind of Gelsenkirchner Barock if anybody knows what is meant by this!!. Steffen: This new room is also used for modern functions like weddings, entertaining VIPs etc. So in a way it also "dient Repräsentationszwecken", just as the 18c "Prunkräume" did/do.

Kirsten Bodart Dec 12, 2016:

Sorry but Prunkräume wouldn't have been constructed in the 1950s. The term 'Prunkräume' goes with the so-called piano nobile and were a distinctive architectural feature in Germany (see Wikipedia also) at the time this palace was built in the 18th century. Whatever the palace was used for after WWII is of little concern to the thing we are discussing here, as the very reason why these rooms are still used must well be because they're not 1950s in style, surely. Besides the Wikipedia entry speaks of stucco with birds etc. Not 1950s by any means.

Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2016:

[continued] [Edit: Don't disagree. Kirsten is correct: it's "dienten." Considering Diana's additional info above, it must refer to the earlier period here.]
Still:
"Es folgte in den fünfziger Jahren des 20. Jahrhunderts der Umbau des Hauses. Man fasste zwei Räume im Erdgeschoss des Wohnhauses zusammen, um das Schelfenhaus für repräsentative Zwecke nutzen zu können.[...]Das Obergeschoss dient heute repräsentativen Zwecken und wird für Weinproben, Empfänge und Kunstausstellungen genutzt."

Cf.:
"The castle has been used for a range of cultural and social events. The castle has seen various musical performances, including by Tom Jones, Green Day and the Stereophonics, with a capacity to accommodate over 10,000 people."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Castle

"It is a popular tourist attraction, a venue for hosting state visits, and the preferred weekend home of Elizabeth II."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Castle

and:
http://www.luxuryscottishwedding.co.uk/unique-venues-exclusi...
http://www.highcliffecastle.co.uk/

Personally, I don't believe there's much to translate here.

Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2016:

@Diana Perhaps you should have limited the question to "Repräsentation," since that is what you seem most concerned about (I don't really mind, but the moderators don't like this sort of thing, since it interferes with the process of creating glossary entries).

To your question:
"Actually I am wondering just generally how to express the way in which certain rooms are intended to serve Repräsentationszwecke"

A quite helpful resource is http://woerterbuchnetz.de/ (includes the Brothers Grimm dictionaries):
"Repräsentation (lat.), Stellvertretung; auch der Aufwand, der mit einer gewissen Stellung verbunden ist; daher Repräsentationskosten, der Aufwand, den hohe Beamte, wie Minister, Gesandte, Generale, Oberbürgermeister etc., im Interesse ihrer Stellung machen müssen. Zur Bestreitung dieser Repräsentationskosten erhalten diese außer ihrem festen Gehalt gewöhnlich noch sogen."
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/cgi-bin/WBNetz/wbgui_py?sigle=Meye...

Duden:
Vertretung eines Staates, einer öffentlichen Einrichtung o. Ä. auf gesellschaftlicher Ebene und der damit verbundene Aufwand
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Repraesentation#b2-Bedeu...

"Bewirtung" is only part of it.

Ramey Rieger (X) Dec 12, 2016:

Or even representative events. The term is rather vague. Formal, representative, demonstrative.... were put on display/reserved for formal events.

Ramey Rieger (X) Dec 12, 2016:

Formal is apt.

Helen Shiner Dec 12, 2016:

@Armorel Plenty of ceremonial dinners take place in state rooms. It is about receiving guests in a formal manner, whatever you're doing.

Armorel Young Dec 12, 2016:

It's unheard of... ... for me to disagree with Helen, but isn't "ceremonial" a bit restricting: fine if you're, say, knighting people but less appropriate if the room is being used for a dance or dinner?

Steffen Walter Dec 12, 2016:

Agree with Armorel ... ... regarding 'used for functions', such as (formal/official) receptions and other, similar occasions.

Helen Shiner Dec 12, 2016:

@Diana Another suggestion: The ornate state rooms on the upper storey served/were used for ceremonial purposes.

Ramey Rieger (X) Dec 12, 2016:

@Diana Yes, you're right. It could also refer to public viewing (no pun intended) and tours, such as in amuseum, which are also representative of the city's prosperity. Still, that is rarely openly stated - "Hey look how rich we are!" but demonstrates the status in any case. Perhaps the soution should somehow encompass 'public'. Pondering...

Armorel Young Dec 12, 2016:

Repräsentation Isn't Repräsentation something that brings in people from outside (guests/visitors) - so it would be covered by an expression such as "used for functions"?

Kirsten Bodart Dec 12, 2016:

See Wikipedia about the initial purpose "Nach einem Studium in Würzburg übernahm Schelf repräsentative Aufgaben in der Stadt, war von 1741 bis zu seinem Tod sogar Oberbürgermeister."

I.e. Schelf, who decided to build the Schelfenhaus, was a city official. I would agree with entertainment, as I think he would have used the place for private fun activities too (although the boundary between private and public was a bit blury at that time), but maybe add 'official purposes' or so as well. Because, like an ambassador nowadays, he would have received people and done deals at home.

We are not talking of the Middle Ages here either, we are in the 18th century (Rococo & Baroque to be more precise), though I agree that 'show of wealth' wouldn't be appropriate. Not because things didn't work that way; they did, certainly in Germany at that time where local princes would have had their own orchestras and courts to entertain (see also Vantity Fair), but because Schelf was a wine merchant and city official. This means he would have had a lot of money, but wouldn't have been expected to entertain a court entourage or make any shows of wealth in the Celtic tradition.

British Diana (asker) Dec 12, 2016:

now and then Actually I am wondering just generally how to express the way in which certain rooms are intended to serve Repräsentationszwecke, not only how the particular rooms in this 18th century house did so. Surely "Repräsentation" is something that still happens and is more than mere entertaining? .

British Diana (asker) Dec 12, 2016:

Hallo Steffen http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/international_or...

CONTEXT: Dieses der politischen und gesellschaftlichen Repräsentation dienende Amt hatte danach ab 1841 der österreichische Staatskanzler Clemens Fürst von Metternich inne.

this refers to the presidency of the istituta di corrispondenza archeologica. I'm sorry about the "specific field" above--I could not find anything really appropriate. Many thanks in advance
This was the one I found, where the Asker was not really happy with the proffered answer.

philgoddard Dec 12, 2016:

Armorel You should post that as an answer, and I agree about staterooms too.

Ramey Rieger (X) Dec 12, 2016:

Good point Armorel I posted before the link turned up...lame excuse, I know. Still focusing on Representationzwecke. How about :
The extravagant/ornate/ornalmental City Palace third floor rooms were intended/kept asie/used primarily for entertaining.

Armorel Young Dec 12, 2016:

With Steffen I think it just means something like "the magnificent staterooms were used for entertaining" ("events/gatherings" is fine if we are talking about the present, but a bit modern if we are talking about the Middle Ages). Things like "to make a show of wealth" are a bit tendentious for my taste - if the Queen hosts a dinner in the state banqueting hall at Windsor Castle, she isn't doing that primarily in order to display her wealth.

Steffen Walter Dec 12, 2016:

Wikipedia entry The Wikipedia entry you quoted says: "Das Obergeschoss dient heute repräsentativen Zwecken und wird für Weinproben, Empfänge und Kunstausstellungen genutzt." Perhaps just something like ' ... were/are used to hold events/gatherings'? I think the difficulty lies in merging 'Prunkräume' (richly/lavishly decorated rooms?) with the 'repräsentativ/Repräsentation' notion.

Steffen Walter Dec 12, 2016:

Were you ... ... referring to http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/history/1143309-... ?