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le quote-part du temps de travail
Dec 29, 2015 11:49
8 yrs ago
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French term

Plan mince

French to English Tech/Engineering Ships, Sailing, Maritime Naval architecture
This is a question for boat specialists only - I once vowed never to translate anything to do with boats, but here I am! My Naval Dictionary has every kind of "plan" except "mince" and even the helpful glossary provided with the project only has "thin pattern" and "deadwood" on offer. The context is that of sacrificial anodes bolted onto various parts of the ship exposed to seawater, one of which is the "plan mince". Could this be the keel or transom?
Proposed translations (English)
1 fin
3 +1 appendage
References
Canadian Power and Sail Squadron Glossary
un système pour contrôler la direction ...

Discussion

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 31, 2015:
Chris,

Extra context is always helpful. The "steerable pod" info is a key piece of info. I suppose you are not able to give much away but without more info, it's tough to see what part is being referred to.

Here's one source with "plan mince" and "steerable pod". Not wild about the solution of "thin plane" though : http://www.google.com/patents/EP1826117A1?cl=en

Here's another source from the Ecole Centrale, where "plan mince" is in fact "plan mince de dérive" : http://website.ec-nantes.fr/ingenieurs/breveMetierdelaMer6.p...

And another which confirms that "plan anti-dérive" includes both keel and rudder : http://www.jph-lamotte.fr/files/tech_safran.htm#n03
See the part of "la fonction anti-dérive".

Note also that "dérive" is in fact a short-form of "plan anti-dérive". "Dérive" and "safran", keels (fixed or not) and rudders are collectively described as "appendages".

Without more context, this could be:
- plan mince anti-dérive
- plan mince de quille
- plan mince de safran (probably unlikely now you say it has steerable pods).

Can you not ask the client what the "plan mince" is actually referring to?
If it is the keel, then "thin keel" alone is meaningless.
chris collister (asker) Dec 30, 2015:
Context: The ship concerned is a very modern, specialised vessel of several thousand tonnes. I'm inclined more and more to think that this is just a rudder, though given that propulsion is by steerable pods, this would make a rudder redundant! A picture would be worth a thousand words, but I don't have one...
Philippe Etienne Dec 29, 2015:
@Charles I agree with you too.
Your definition of "plan mince" likely matches the "name" I have found, and also Chris' earlier hunch (the fixed part of the hull which precedes the rudder).
As to what it's called I haven't got a clue!
Charles Davis Dec 29, 2015:
Then again... "Le plan mince d'un navire est la partie plane arrière de la coque servant de plan anti-dérive à la carène. Dans certains cas il renferme le tube d'étambot".
http://www.crdp-montpellier.fr/ressources/examens/sujets/06/... (p. 3)

Unless I've misunderstood this it's referring to the transom. And it's clearly a name, not a description. However, I wouldn't say that settles it. I agree with you, Philippe; it could be a number of things.
Philippe Etienne Dec 29, 2015:
descriptive vs. name As Phil mentioned earlier.
From what I found, all protruding, flat, low-drag bits below the waterline are descriptively deemed "plan mince": rudders, rolling chocks, bilge keels, stabilizing fins. The only occurrence I found where a "plan mince" is actually something is here: http://www.calcoque.fr/model.html
From the sound of "plan mince", there could be a hydrodynamic definition attached to it (reminds me of "couche mince"), and anything within the scope of the definition is a "plan mince". But by extension, it could also mean something specific in FR.
Charles Davis Dec 29, 2015:
With Nikki I looked at this question when it was posted some hours ago, but was led astray by misunderstanding your question to mean that the "plan mince" in question was one of the sacrificial anodes, rather than one of the parts of the boat to which the sacrificial anodes were fixed. I feel the weight of evidence from usage points quite strongly to the rudder blade, though as Philippe has shown the expression can be found referring to other parts. After all, it really just means "thin plane". In other words, more often than not it seems to be a synonym for safran.

Apart from the Wikipedia page Daryo has quoted, which includes "un ou plusieurs safran(s), plan mince à l'arrière de la coque déviant l'eau du côté désiré", there are other references like this:

"Le système de gouvernail est composé de :
- safran: plan mince et profilé"
http://dept.navigation.enmm.free.fr/giration.swf (slide 2)

And quite a lot more.

Here's a nice picture of a sacrificial anode on a rudder blade:
https://www.boats.com/how-to/protecting-metal-rudders-with-s...
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 29, 2015:
@Chris Could you indicate what type of craft is concerned? Indications of the term preceding and following this one in your list may help too.
It is highly likely to be referring to the rudder blade.
chris collister (asker) Dec 29, 2015:
The context is pretty much as I described it, being a list of the submerged parts of a steel hull where one might want to bolt on a sacrificial anode. Yet more research suggests that this may simply be a naval architect's synonym for "rudder", though other refs suggest it may be that fixed (and thin) part of the hull which precedes the rudder. These are particularly prominent on racing rowing shells, where the rudders themselves seem impossibly small, only a few tens of square cm. in many cases.
philgoddard Dec 29, 2015:
I'm no expert either, but it sounds like it may be a description of a part, rather than its name. Could we have the French context, please.

Proposed translations

2 hrs
Selected

fin

From a verified non-specialist.
Looking for "thin plane", I came across this:
Fin: A projecting keel. A thin plane of metal projecting from hull, etc.

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Note added at 5 hrs (2015-12-29 17:01:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

After some more entertaining research to confirm that I should never touch ship design, it may just be the thin part of the hull below the bilge. Here (http://www.calcoque.fr/pic/aitoneapp.png), the caption says "Plan mince, quilles anti-roulis et stabilisateurs" (cf. http://www.calcoque.fr/model.html): I see fins (stabilisateurs), the "quilles antiroulis" (ribs running along the bilge) and the red keel. I discount the red bits at the back, which look like propellers.
To support the fact that the keel can be referred to as a "plan mince": http://zonenautique.fr/Blog/archives/tag/deriveur-505-occasi...
If your boat has a protruding belly like a small boat instead of a fat one like tankers, maybe this "plan mince" is just the centerline keel.

Also with a confidence level of 1.
Reference:

http://www.seasources.net/vessel_nomenclature.htm

Note from asker:
You may well be right, Philippe! See my comments above...
Thanks to everybody - all along the right lines, but a spot-on nautical term is proving elusive...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Along the same lines as you on this one, although I don't think we have enough context to be more specific than "appendage". It can be a keel, a rudder or anything else which contributes to the "plan anti-dérive", thus part of the keel and/or appendages.
1 day 10 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: ""Fin" may be close enough, though it seems it could also be a strake, a centreboard, an active stabiliser, or a rudder...!"
+1
1 day 12 hrs

appendage

This is a medium + confidence level. From one of my (old, 1998) books on naval architecture, where a "plan mince" is speficially used in inverted commas as a synonym for appendage (keel, rudder) for mechanically propelled vessels.

Source : Architecture Navale, connaissance et pratique.
Dominique PAULET, Dominiaue PRESLE
Ed. Les éditions de la Villettte. Savoir faire de l'architecture.

p29.

"plan de dérive : c'est la surface de la projection de la carène sur le plan longitudinal. Pour les navires à propulsion mécanique, le plan de dérive est constitué principalement par le profil longitudinal de la coque, qui s'étend jusqu'à l'étambot (parfois par l'intermédiaire d'un élément rapporté - appendice - appelé "plan mince"), plus le gouvernail.

"Plan mince" clearly describes the "élément rapporté - appendice", appendages in English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day12 hrs (2015-12-31 00:36:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You might like to compare in the Paulet & Presle text, "..le plan de dérive est constituté principalement par le profil longitudinal de la coque..." with this extract from Eric Tupper's "Introduction to Naval Architecture" (formerly Muckle's Naval Architecture for marine Engineers), 3rd ed., Ed. Butterworth Heinemann, p.10, in a Chapter on Definition and Regulation with a section about representing the hull form, "WHere there are excrescences from the main hull, such as shaft bossings or a sonar dome, these are treated as appendages and faired separately".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day12 hrs (2015-12-31 00:41:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And finally, from the Dictionnaire maritime thématique anglais et français" by A. Bruno and C. Mouileron-Bécar, Coll. Bibliothèque de l'Institut français d'aide à la formation professionnelle maritime. Ed. InfoMer, p5, "Conception et Elaboration/Design and Building":
Etude et théorie du navire.
"appendages (such as shaft bossings, bilge keels, rudder...) appendices (tels qu'ailerons de sortie d'arbre, quilles de roulis, govuernail...). "
Peer comment(s):
agree florence metzger
1 day 9 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

Canadian Power and Sail Squadron Glossary

Quille anti-roulis (p. 56)
(bilge keel):
Plan mince fixé extérieurement à la coque, sur une partie de la longueur; sert à
amortir les mouvements de roulis.
Quille de roulis
(Bilge keel) : plans minces fixés extérieurement à la coque sur une partie de sa longueur, pour
prévenir le roulis.


In the following reference:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=prQgBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA356&lpg=P...

a bilge keel is defined as a "flat plate".
Reference:

https://www.cps-ecp.ca/public_fr/PublicUploads/224985Glossaire_fran%E7ais.2014.02.15NG.pdf

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard
46 mins
Thanks, Phil.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs
Reference:

un système pour contrôler la direction ...

Système giratoire

Articles détaillés : Gouvernail et Safran (bateau).

Sur un bateau à propulsion humaine, un système pour contrôler la direction peut ne pas être nécessaire. Il le devient en cas de propulsion mécanique ou vélique. La forme la plus courante est un gouvernail constitué d'un ou plusieurs safran(s), plan mince à l'arrière de la coque déviant l'eau du côté désiré et faisant pivoter le bateau en conséquence. Le safran est lui-même relié par sa mèche à la barre, actionnée manuellement ou par un pilote automatique. Le gouvernail peut être remplacé par un système où le propulseur est orientable : moteur hors-bord, pods, Z-drive ou ou voile(s) dynamique(s) en cas de propulsion vélique.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conception_d'un_bateau
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