Aug 24, 2015 22:51
8 yrs ago
13 viewers *
English term

They were equally as good as each other

English Other Idioms / Maxims / Sayings Normal everyday language
We're talking about a simple game of soccer which ends scoreless. A reporter/journalist writes the above ("they" being the two football teams).

Is it good English? Proper, like? Decent newspaper standard? Is it wrong? Or just tautology? Or sth. else?

I'd be very interested in native-speaker views, esp. from UKI.

- They were equally good.
- One was as good as the other.

Would that IYO be a necessary correction or an example of hairsplitting?

No context as such, just sth. I read tonight and wondered about.
Cilian
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Yvonne Gallagher

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Responses

+8
46 mins
Selected

Passable - but only just.

Is it good English? - No.
Proper, like? - No.
Decent newspaper standard? - Sad to say, it's par for the course.
Is it wrong? - Strictly speaking, yes; but, there again, what's 'right' in a constantly evolving multi-cultural language?
Or just tautology? - That, amongst other things.
Or sth. else? - Sloppy. Uneducated. A sign of the times ...
Note from asker:
Thanks, that's useful input.
Peer comment(s):

agree Jack Doughty
6 hrs
agree Jonathan MacKerron : nicely put
7 hrs
neutral B D Finch : Agree with your explanation, but not with your liberal acceptance of this as "passable". OK in speech, but not in writing (and worse still by a journalist: spreading the acceptability of such sloppiness).
7 hrs
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : with BDF and not "hairsplitting" to make the changes
8 hrs
agree Simon Mac
8 hrs
agree Mark Nathan : About normal for football speak
9 hrs
neutral danya : with BD Finch, this cannot/should not be passable in writing
9 hrs
neutral Alison MacG : Nice set of answers to Cilian’s questions. However, I agree with others that it is not passable and that correcting it is not hairsplitting. I think it arises from a confused combination of the phrases “equally good” and “just as good as”.
10 hrs
agree acetran
1 day 10 hrs
agree Charles Davis : "Passable but only just" is pretty close to my own view; I think the comments from some of your "neutralisers" go too far and I was really responding to them.
6 days
agree phoenix11
9 days
agree Phong Le
25 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I'm practically equally as wise as I was before I asked the Q. Many thanks to all. "
+3
1 day 2 mins

idiomatic and acceptable in informal writing, though widely condemned

I am clearly swimming against the tide here, but honesty compels me to enter a dissenting view. There is a touch of devil's advocacy in what I'm going to say; I do find this usage somewhat infelicitous, but I find some of the comments here excessively censorious.

The censoriousness echoes Fowler, who thundered in 1926: "The use of equally as instead of either equally or as by itself is an illiterate tautology [...] These should be corrected by using equally alone where a comparison is not expressed within the sentence, and as alone where it is."

In his revision of Fowler's guide, R. W. Burchfield quotes this and comments that "the echoes of his condemnation rumble on".

Fowler was not the first to reject this usage on the grounds of redundancy. In his Vulgarisms & Other Errors of Speech (Philadelphia, 1869), Richard Meade Bache had commented:

"As good as means equally good; therefore, equally as good as means equally, equally good.
[...]
In the common phrase, "equally as good as,"—one can strike out both as's, or else strike out equally."
https://books.google.es/books?id=TQkSAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA137&dq="e...

On the other hand, Merriam-Webster's usage guide takes a much more indulgent view:

"Equally as is certainly not ‘illiterate,’ and its redundancy is more apparent than real. We would describe it as an idiomatic phrase that is equivalent to just as and that is widely regarded as redundant."

It adds, however, that "its reputation is bad enough to make it relatively rare in edited prose", and advises writers to avoid it, not so much because it is bad as because language commentators don't like it:

"This innocuous phrase has drawn more vehement criticism than is warranted, but you may well want to prefer just as in your writing or to use equally by itself for emphasis where your construction permits it."

Quoted (mostly) from: http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/06/equally-as.html

Merriam-Webster is of course American, but the arguments on this usage are equally applicable to British (or Irish) English. I find these views sensible.

"Equally as ____ as" is a long-established usage which has been fairly common in written English since the eighteenth century at least. Here's one example, from Hansard in 1817:

"Surely then the sinking fund, which instead of bettering the condition of the country, left it equally as bad as when it found it, deserved no such name."
https://books.google.es/books?id=C_mE0bKjbigC&pg=PA28&dq="eq...

Modern examples are plentiful in quite respectable sources. Here's one from an article by the Health Editor of the Guardian in April this year:

"However, they established that mindfulness-based therapy is equally as good as drugs, which could offer a new option for those who do not want to be on medication for years."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/21/mindfulness-b...

And in academic writing, to take just one striking example, "equally as good as" is used no fewer than seventeen times in three pages in an essay by John Broome, Emeritus White’s Professor of Moral Philosophy at Oxford University, in an essay entitled "Incommensurable Values", published by OUP in a Festschrift for James Griffin.
https://books.google.es/books?id=_Hy5Rng9L3QC&pg=PA26&dq="eq...

It would perhaps be worth considering why Broome chose this expression, to which he devotes very close attention, rather than just "as good as". I find it hard to believe that he was confused about what he was saying. His essay was read before publication by five other philosophers, whom he names, by the editors of the volume, and (presumably) by OUP's copy-editors. If the expression is "illiterate", this is rather alarming.

It is not clear to me that "the two teams were as good as each other" or "the two teams were equally good" are in fact exactly equivalent to what has been written (or perhaps said) here:

"The two teams were equally good" would normally be taken to mean that both teams were good, and to an equal degree, but that is not what the writer/speaker means: he/she is expressing equality of merit, not degree of merit. It may be that both teams were mediocre or bad, but equally so, and in that case "equally good" will not convey the desired meaning.

"The two teams were as good as each other" seems to say what is meant without redundancy, and therefore seems preferable, but it lacks an emphasis the speaker/writer desires to give: not just more or less as good as each other, but equally so. Despite what Meade Bache wrote in 1856, "as good as" does not, in practice, always express exact equality; it can express approximate equality.

I think this is why "just as good as each other" is generally regarded as acceptable and not tautologous. If we can use "just" here, why can't we use "equally"? People have been doing so for a long time and still do. I don't see why they shouldn't, and I don't see why we should necessarily follow language commentators in allowing cold logic to override all other linguistic considerations.

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Note added at 1 day16 mins (2015-08-25 23:08:06 GMT)
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I've gone on far too long already, but what, pray, is the argument for saying that this is OK in speech, but not in writing? Michele has shown that this may in fact be speech anyway, but in any case, if it is wrong it is wrong. I don't think it is wrong; I think the worst you could say of it is that it is inelegant. And if something is idiomatic speech, and not actually ungrammatical, why shouldn't it be used in sports journalism?
Note from asker:
More useful input. Thank you Charles.
Thanks again Charles. You've clearly put a lot of thought into this, more than my trivial Q merits. A lesson for all, self included. Thanks.
Peer comment(s):

agree Victoria Britten : Now that's what I call legwork! And an agreable and instructive read, as ever.
9 hrs
Thanks very much for taking the trouble, Victoria :)
agree Veronika McLaren
3 days 13 hrs
Thank you very much, Veronika :)
agree Jennifer Levey : Take an 'agree' on me. That said, I still think it's sloppy; at best, 'par for the course' in modern-day journalism, as we can see day in, day out, on the BBC News website...
5 days
Thanks a lot, Robin; that's handsome of you. We're not far apart on this.
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Reference comments

11 hrs
Reference:

Live quote?

Hey C. I agree it's pretty bad, but if this is it: http://www.bbc.com/sport/live/football/33515251 it seems to be a quote from live commentary, which makes it more understandable?


Steve Claridge
BBC Radio 5 live at Emirates Stadium
"If Arsenal are expecting to take top four, then why shouldn't Liverpool? They were equally as good as each other.
Note from asker:
You got me there, Michele :-)
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