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Glossary entry

Deutsch term or phrase:

gesichert

Englisch translation:

linguistically (well) established

Added to glossary by Gabriella Bertelmann
Jan 29, 2011 14:21
13 yrs ago
3 viewers *
Deutsch term

gesichert

Deutsch > Englisch Geistes- und Sozialwissenschaften Bildungswesen/Pädagogik Secondary school curriculum
Unter dem Punkt: Sprachmittlung:

Aus kurzen, "sprachlich gesicherten" mündlichen und schriftlichen Äußerungen die Hauptgedanken erfassen und in einfacher Form in die jeweils andere Sprache übertragen.

Man sollte meinen, ich wüsste als Übersetzerin, was zu Sprachmittlung gehört :-D, aber was bitte ist eine "sprachlich gesicherte" Äußerung?
Proposed translations (Englisch)
4 +1 linguistically (well) established
3 +3 linguistically correct
4 +1 confident/secure
4 couched in familiar vocabulary and grammatical structures
4 unambiguous; clear
Change log

Feb 1, 2011 20:03: Gabriella Bertelmann Created KOG entry

Feb 1, 2011 20:03: Gabriella Bertelmann changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/822866">Gabriella Bertelmann's</a> old entry - "gesichert"" to ""linguistically (well) established""

Discussion

Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 31, 2011:
@Diana No, actually that is not my comment at all and I have already contacted the support this morning. They are looking into it. I am very annoyed though!
British Diana Jan 31, 2011:
the reason Possibly when commenting on Ramay's entry you clicked the wrong button (not "comment" but "choose this as best answer" or similar. It's quite easy to do if one is in a hurry.
You must put in a Support request or ask a Moderator (scroll down to bottom) asap, only they can help you here, not "ordinary" users!
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 31, 2011:
Can somebody tell me, why the question was graded by someone other than myself? Now I am completely lost.
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
@Andrew Please don't hesitate to post your suggestions, as I do not believe in leaving the awarding of points to the computer. I always take my time to come back and choose the most helpful answer, even when I have two deadlines to catch :-)
Lancashireman Jan 30, 2011:
Hi Elizabeth I am considering posting ‘consolidated’. I have found 53,000 useful occurrences here: http://tinyurl.com/4l83szu. However, ‘linguistically correct’ has built up such a massive lead already that I can see the robot automatically awarding four points to that answer in two weeks time, and that would be most disgruntling.
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
@Andrew No, I do have my serious doubts about it here, but having said that, I also had the same doubts about it in German. It took an actual working teacher in Germany to convince me. So here is my question to you (as I believ somebody said you were an experienced teacher) and to everybody else out there with teaching experience: how would you put this in an English version of a curriculum to make it sound natural and yet convey the same meaning?
Lancashireman Jan 30, 2011:
linguistically secured? Sure, why not? But you will need to put 'secured' in inverted commas (single for BE, double for AE) to show that you are using it in a specialised sense and then add a brief explanation in brackets/parentheses to explain what it is supposed to mean: (i.e. ...). Erm, you do know what 'secured' means here? Because I certainly wouldn't.
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
After researching some more, I have now established that my first "gut feeling" was right and "gesichert" means that the teacher must ensure the pupils understand the texts. So, I think I am now leaning towards "linguistically secured" as suggested by Bernhard?
Lancashireman Jan 30, 2011:
Past participle: gesichert The 'Äußerungen' have undergone some sort of ‘Sicherungsprozess’. Consequently, we are looking for an equivalent past participle form in English, a suitable verb ending in ‘ed’, e.g. ‘learned’ or ‘assimilated’ from a student perspective, ‘taught’ or ‘consolidated’ from a teacher perspective, ‘standardised’ from an examiner’s perspective. ‘Familiarised’ is promising, but this applies to the students rather than the material. ‘Linguistically correct’ is a dead end here (despite the somewhat inarticulate endorsements from esteemed colleagues); even ‘corrected’ doesn’t make much sense in this context.
Dr Jo: How about ‘disambiguated’?
Phil Lee: Not sure what you mean by ‘recognisable’; also, I think you are using ‘verbal’ too restrictively to mean ‘spoken’.
phillee Jan 30, 2011:
How about this for a starting point ... "using recognizable verbal and written phrases that the pupils are already familiar with" or "have been made familiar" or " have been familiaris(z)ed with" ... :)
Helen Shiner Jan 30, 2011:
Thank you, Elizabeth That will help the discussion.
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
@Helen Kommunikative Kompetenzen
Sprachmittlung
- "o.g. Satz
- aus einfachen Sach- und Gebrauchstexten den wesentlichen Inhalt erschließen und auf deutsch sinngemäß weitergeben
- in einfachen Alltagssituationen und in Gesprächen mit vertrauter Thematik mündlich vermitteln

That is the entire paragraph
@phillee: "vertraut", "familiar" is often mentioned, so maybe this is the right path, but how can I put it into the English sentence, without having to write an essay?
Helen Shiner Jan 30, 2011:
@ Elizabeth Just the thrust of the paragraph in which this sentence appears would help. How are we to judge otherwise?
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
Yes, to be precise, I have 50 pages full of context :-), too much to include it all. "Age-appropriate" was mentioned in a few places regarding texts used in the curriculum, but always as "altersgerecht", so this is just a frustrated guess.
So, this sentence is one of the aspects listed in a table of targets set for this particular year of secondary school. Others are under the headings "writing", "speaking", "comprehension".
Helen Shiner Jan 30, 2011:
@ phillee I guess it depends on how these phrases have become familiar, in other words whether they are a required, measured element of the curriculum or not. More context would help.
phillee Jan 30, 2011:
This ... http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/content/sen-bildung/schulorg...
.. uses the same terminology and also gives some comparative information about three different learning levels. I think we are on the right track with use of 'familiar' sets of vocabulary and phrases. Just need a nice compact way of expressing it.
Helen Shiner Jan 30, 2011:
@ Elizabeth Obviously you have far more context than we have. I can't see anything in what you have given us that would suggest 'age-appropriate' specifically. Maybe your context gives you this impression. It seems to me that all are answering this in essentially the same way, except perhaps Johanna, just struggling to find appropriate terminology. You haven't given us much to go on, to be fair. Andrew Swift would be an expert on school curricula given his long years in teaching; others may have other experience related to teaching. It might be worth thinking in those terms, if you are still unsure.
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
Or was it ensured that the phrases were age-appropriate? I think, this is one of these words that could mean fifferent things to different people, as this discussion shows, which leaves me as a translator cornered.
Helen Shiner Jan 30, 2011:
@ Elizabeth It is from sichern, here really meaning to assure, but that doesn't work so well in EN, which is why people are trying to find an appropriate way of saying this in respect of key learning skills.
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 30, 2011:
@all I am sorry I left this discussion for so long, but Iam trying to meet 2 deadlines at the same time.
The sentence is indeed from the "Deutscher Lehrplan Sekundarschulen -Englisch". It does not mention "gesichert" anywhere else. It is one of the skills expected from pupils at the end of the particular year. From what I understand, they are expected to be able to transfer the meaning of the "Äußerungen" into the other language (English or german respectively). But I just cannot get my head around this "gesichert". It does not make sense to me ;-(
Helen Shiner Jan 30, 2011:
Assimilated learning I am also of the view that this is about pupils having demonstrated (and it having been recorded in some way) that they have acquired/assimilated certain key phrases (dictated by the curriculum) and are able to use these key phrases as building blocks for onward learning, here specifically in the learning of another language.
Lancashireman Jan 30, 2011:
The merry band of clickers Same old story: Even though there are five or six quite different interpretations on offer here and we are awaiting further clarification from the asker, this still doesn't stop people clicking on 'agree' and leaving no supporting comment.
British Diana Jan 30, 2011:
definitely! I agree with you, Andrew. The Asker has posted this under "Secondary school curriculum" so maybe this is a phrase from a German Lehrplan.
Lancashireman Jan 30, 2011:
sprachlich gesicherte Äußerungen ‘phrases or sentences (utterances) that have been checked for compliance with the approved curriculum’

‘phrases or sentences that form part of the syllabus’

I am reluctant to post this as an answer because I am unable to see the surrounding context. I am beginning to suspect, however, that this has to do with assessment. It is either a reassurance to candidates that they will not be asked to understand or respond to situations in which they have had no practice, or a reminder to teachers to consult the curriculum in drawing up their lesson plans, or even a warning to examiners not to stray beyond the clearly defined limits of the curriculum.
Lancashireman Jan 29, 2011:
Sorry EK but ... … it is necessary to subject you to the ‘more context’ interrogation routine. How do you understand ‘sprachlich’ here – primarily as ‘linguistic’ or more in the sense of 'the language teaching/learning process'? And does the source text contain any further references to 'sicher/sichern/gesichert', perhaps later on in the document under a heading such as ‘Wie man eine Äußerung sichert’?
Lancashireman Jan 29, 2011:
Asker's context: See above^^^ Secondary school curriculum
In language teaching at secondary school level in the UK, the teacher ticks boxes for each student as they successfully perform certain tasks in the FL. The idea is that the student has demonstrated 'mastery' or 'assimilation' of the material. The flaw in the logic of this, of course, is that linguistic utterances may subsequently be forgotten.
Bernhard Sulzer Jan 29, 2011:
@Elizabeth Gibt's ein bisschen mehr Hintergundinfo? Wer macht die Äußerungen und sind es Schüler, die hier diese Äußerungen übersetzen oder was ist hier mit "in die jeweils andere Sprache übertragen" gemeint? Danke.
British Diana Jan 29, 2011:
@Phillie I didn't see your discussion entry before I started thinking about this question, so I came on "familiar" on my own! Sorry!
"Easily understandable" is perhaps not quite right, for some students might still not understand the utterances easily. The point is that the latter have been introduced and practised beforehand.
phillee Jan 29, 2011:
That sounds good => '(easily) understandable language' or 'familiar language'
Elizabeth Kelly (asker) Jan 29, 2011:
Or maybe in the sense of "understood", i.e. the teacher would discuss the text with the pupils first and "make sure" they understand it?
phillee Jan 29, 2011:
Quite a vague term really. Could it be something like using language/vocabulary/grammar that is appropriate to the learning level of the pupils?
Ramey Rieger (X) Jan 29, 2011:
Hi Andrew! I believe they mean material or vocabulary learned which can then be confidently applied to summaries both oral and written.

Proposed translations

+1
2 Stunden
Selected

linguistically (well) established

Aus kurzen, "sprachlich gesicherten" mündlichen und schriftlichen Äußerungen die Hauptgedanken erfassen und in einfacher Form in die jeweils andere Sprache übertragen.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2011-01-29 19:52:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

that is why I chose (well) established (in class, i.e. learned)
Peer comment(s):
agree Bernhard Sulzer : or 'linguistically secured" maybe. Tentative agree. Need more context.
3 Stunden
thank you Bernhard. Kind regards
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I think, this works! Thank you to everyone else, too!"
+1
2 Stunden

confident/secure

As I understand it, what they are trying to say is that the language has been learned and the students are able to transfer their knowledge - seemingly in a foreign language? - into another foreign language.
Example sentence:

In short, confident oral and written statements, the theme is summarised and translated into the other language.

Peer comment(s):
agree Lancashireman : That would indeed make sense: 'assimilated' // I think you need to question BD's assumption that 'Äußerungen' translates as 'statements'. The context is not a police interrogation. // Congrats, RR. This pointed us all in the right direction.
50 Min.
Understood, thanks!// She was referring to my own translation, I think - but I disagree that statements cannot be confident. It could be "sentences" or even "words"
neutral British Diana : Nicht "in", sondern "aus ...Äußerungen", this changes it a bit. The statements cannot be confident./What I mean is that "Gesichert" refers to the language abilities of the student, not to the "Äußerungen" themselves.
2 Stunden
Then "with", but confidently made. But, I believe statements can be confident, why not?// Yes, I see your point, but it is in the nature of Statements, that they be made - I would think this is a given.
Something went wrong...
5 Stunden

couched in familiar vocabulary and grammatical structures

The learners have to be able to understand the main points of written or oral communications when these are couched in language familiar to them i.e. which they have already met during their studies .

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2011-01-29 19:28:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Please insert "known" before
"grammatical".
Something went wrong...
+3
6 Stunden
Deutsch term (edited): sprachlich gesichert

linguistically correct


Aus kurzen, "sprachlich gesicherten" mündlichen und schriftlichen Äußerungen die Hauptgedanken erfassen und in einfacher Form in die jeweils andere Sprache übertragen.
To derive the main thoughts contained in "linguistically correct" oral and written statements, and to convert these into simple form in the other language.
Peer comment(s):
agree Nicole Y. Adams, M.A.
6 Stunden
agree Mech White
12 Stunden
agree Thayenga
12 Stunden
neutral Johanna Timm, PhD : This is about translation a source into a target text. It should go without saying that the source text is indeed linguistically correct! But to allow students a fair chance and teachers a fair assessment, the ST wording must be CLEAR.
20 Stunden
I disagree. It is not obvious that the source text is linguistically correct. Even the NYTimes editorials are not always linguistically correct. Author is trying to specify that the students are given a linguistically correct text to start with.
Something went wrong...
5 Stunden

unambiguous; clear

Grasp/comprehend the main points of brief, unambiguous oral and written statements

“Sprachliche Sicherung” , IMO, is the use of correct/appropriate terminology.

In this context, I would translate “sprachlich gesichert" as “unambiguous” or “clear”


Spracharbeit Konnten die Schüler wichtige Arbeitsergebnisse angemessen
versprachlichen?
Wurden wichtige Begriffe sprachlich gesichert?
War die Lehrersprache bzgl. Umfang und Impulssetzung angemessen?

www.stusis.de/fileadmin/user_upload/UV/Reflektionshilfe.doc


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2011-01-29 23:09:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sprachlich sichern= akkurat benennen

" Praktische Lehr- und Lernvollzüge beim Tierparkbesuch: Notieren, messen, zählen, sammeln, Proben mitnehmen, Skizzen oder Fotos anfertigen, (Lerntypen beachten) Diese äußeren Aktivitäten müssen sich auf innerlich zu vollziehende Denkhandlungen beziehen, d.h. rational begründbar sein. Auf sachgerechte sprachliche Sicherung der Objekte und Handlungen ist zu achten ( fächerübergreifendes Prinzip, Sachunterricht ist auch Sprachunterricht !)."

http://www.klusemann.onlinehome.de/index6.htm


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