Dan Taylor Aug 25, 2010:

Perhaps, ( assuming that this document originated in the russian system ) the russian system allows for supporting documents? This is simply a wild guess on my part.

Angela Greenfield Aug 25, 2010:

I've seen worse I am not surprised. :-)

Natalia Bearden Aug 24, 2010:

Strange choice of words... That's a very good point Deborah! I totally missed the fact, considering somewhat colorful language used :) My version of translation would not stand a chance in a local court, I don't think... Once again, most strange choice of words in the original. ???...

Deborah Hoffman Aug 24, 2010:

wait They use this phrase in an indictment? Russian indictments must be much more interesting than American ones...

rns Aug 24, 2010:

deal/have anything to do with vs. stand up to In the immediate context, I can see no reason to go with indirect, context driven, etc. meaning when the exact meaning easily cuts it; I'd vote for "stand up to", too.

Dan Taylor Aug 24, 2010:

Well, Michael, perhaps they would, but... after reading again, each post in the discussion and each post in the answers section, I can see no examples of anyone showing any bias, either for or against, based on their own, or any other person’s nationality, except for your last post. It is possible that your post would be considered against the rules of this website, so let’s try to keep everything professional, my friend. If you have an issue with someone, then perhaps they would be willing to discuss it with you in private. I agree with you, that this discussion shouldn't be taken off point. Thanks!
I will be sure to congratulate my good friends in Sweden!

Michael Korovkin Aug 23, 2010:

As I'm sure would Conrad,Nabokov&Godot's ole'pops, I take a strong objection to persistent claims of birthright. They usually creep up when the debater runs out of the valid issue-related argument. I freely admit I resent it. English is an international language.According to UNESCO the best English (and the best vocab) is now in Sweden and Finland – not in England, leave alone the US of A. What those claims of birthright say is, essentially, "you're not born here, so pipe down like a good golliwog an listen to the locals". If a person you're arguing with is professionally inferior to you by your own definition, then, also by definition, you're taking a cheap shot at glory. If a person is not professionally inferior, then rubbing demography in his/her face is a sign of your own feeling of inadequacy. Stick to the point.... which, I dare say, has been in this case stated and overstated. Не хотел связываться, но, пардон, накипело...

Dan Taylor Aug 23, 2010:

We should all have naked heads! haha Yes, I agree Angela, that ‘to deal with’ can be used in many other ways, and my only point was that THIS was one of the ways that it can be used ( it appears that Irina has provided a good reference. I didn’t see that before ). However, ‘to mess with’ could also be used in many ways, although I like it. I would say that ‘to tangle with’ is a great choice. However, this can be used when the two people in question are of equal ‘power’. The choice by RNS is very good in its concept, but not quite natural to the English ear. So, perhaps we can all agree that ‘to stand up to’ from earlier in the discussion would be the best choice?

Angela Greenfield Aug 23, 2010:

I can agree with this, but... only partially, since saying that "nobody wants to deal with him" or "everybody is afraid to deal with him" would have ambiguous meaning (could both mean that nobody wants to do business with him/have anything to do with him, as well as that nobody wants to contradict or mess with him, - you were quite convincing, Dan, I take my hat off!!!!), while "все боятся с ним СВЯЗЫВАТЬСЯ" is quite unambiguous.
My thanks to you, too, for pointing this out, Dan.

Dan Taylor Aug 22, 2010:

a brief counter and a little thanks... Angela, certainly I was not offended at all. And, I applaud your initiative to start this conversation. As Michael suggested, it has caused quite a spirited debate, which I think is healthy for not only the asker, but also for all of us who have participated in, or followed, the subject. For this reason, please allow me to counter by saying that ‘to deal with someone’, in this context, is interchangeable with ‘mess with someone’, ‘tangle with someone’ or ‘stand up to someone’. It does NOT simply mean to do business with someone, etc. For example, a professional fighter might say to his opponent, with whom he has already signed the contract to fight against (the ‘business’ has already been completed, and not even directly with the opponent) “you can’t deal with me”.
To say that the phrase ‘to deal with him’ is incorrect is to mislead those who wish a better understanding of English. ‘To deal with someone/something’ is one of many phrases that are ‘context driven’. I can certainly understand that it might be a strange for any person who is not a native English speaking American. So, I am glad that we had the opportunity to discuss it.
Thanks, Angela!

Angela Greenfield Aug 21, 2010:

continued... Saying that they "don't want to deal/have anything to do with him" is right grammatically, but doesn't render the meaning of the sentence.

Angela Greenfield Aug 21, 2010:

Dan, "с ним боятся иметь дело" и "с ним боятся связываться" are like day and night in terms of meaning. What you are translating is the first, what you have to translate is the second. I strongly believe that there are two problems here (please, don't be offended, since it's going to come out very blunt and I don't really mean it this way): a) you don't quite understand the underlying meaning of the word "связываться" in this context, and b) my Russian colleagues don't quite understand all of the nuances of the meaning of 'wants to deal/have anything to do, with...'. That is why I have started this discussion - to give the native speakers complete understanding of the connotation of the Russian word in the original, so that you can come up with an adequate translation.
You do understand that, as it is in the US, the idea is for these people to exercise full control over their territories. Therefore people DO deal with this guy and HIM alone. They have to. If they don't, they are severely punished. So even if they aren't quite happy with the setup they don't speak up or stand up to him, they just walk away.

Dan Taylor Aug 21, 2010:

'wants to deal/have anything to do, with...' These are both perfectly acceptable answers. I have heard both of these phrases used in the exact same context countless times in my career ( law and law enforcement ). In my opinion, i would stay away from the word 'felon' unless the person has already been convicted of a felony. Bandit, while not a common english term, would be perfectly understood. More common would be 'gangster', 'mobster', or even just '(violent)criminal'. The english language is very flexible, and the phrase 'to deal with him' will have several meanings depending on the context, which is quite clear in this question.

Angela Greenfield Aug 21, 2010:

also, about "бандит" From my limited experience "бандит" is closer in meaning to the "wise guy" (Am.slang) than to a "felon".

Angela Greenfield Aug 21, 2010:

even better! That means that people are afraid to "stand UP to him", i.e. contradict him in any way.

chap (asker) Aug 21, 2010:

The implication is that he is a man of the underworld, a kingpin of sorts. So, whoever is deceived or offended by him must think twice before trying to get anything from him. All are afraid even if they are right.

Angela Greenfield Aug 21, 2010:

"everyone is afraid to cross him" Would be my suggestion. I'll leave it to Judith and Jim to come up with something digestable in English.

Angela Greenfield Aug 21, 2010:

"связываться", господа, в данном случае не означает, что с ним боятся иметь дело (Михаил и Джудит, это я в ваш огород камень закидываю для начала дискуссии). Дело с ним (и только с ним или через него) как раз и будут иметь, т.к. если кто дорогу перейдет, жив не останется. Речь идет о потенциальных конкурентах или желающих чуток заработать на продаже наркотиков. Все эти кустари будут безжалостно уничтожены, если не будут вести бизнес через него.
Давайте придумывать другой перевод, пожалуйста.