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Feb 5, 2009 13:34
15 yrs ago
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English term

singular verb/plural noun

English Art/Literary Linguistics
Is it possible to use a singular verb with regard to a plural noun if one can justify an allusion to a greater, overall singular noun?
The context:
Then Bob shows her something she’d never noticed before: on the surface of the water, there are small silent explosions making circular ripples. At first Mary looks up at the sky, because she thinks it IS raindrops. But the sky is blue. Then she realizes, iit IS bubbles coming up from the bottom and bursting at the surface of the water. Bob says it IS the fish breathing, but Mary thinks it IS probably the plants.

My sense of grammar tells me I should substitute are for is (she thinks they ARE raindrops, etc.). However, I know that in spoken English people would say this kind of thing. Can it be justified by saying that the use of the singular verb is an allusion to the cause of the phenomena?
i.e. she thinks the phenomena (of the explosions) is due to raindrops?
I.e. she realizes the penomena is due to bubbles
i.e. Bob says the phenomena is caused by the fish breathing.
i.e. Mary thinks the phenomena is probably caused by the plants.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Responses
4 +7 it depends...
3 +9 it is
5 she thought there were raindrops ( your tense is incorrect)
4 they are
3 +1 it is ...
References
Practical English Usage - Michael Swan
Change log

Feb 5, 2009 13:41: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Language pair" from "French to English" to "English"

Feb 5, 2009 13:42: writeaway changed "Field (specific)" from "Poetry & Literature" to "Linguistics"

Discussion

Marta Scott Feb 6, 2009:
isn't it all about tone? I totally understand others' comments that the ripples are *caused* by raindrops, rather than *being* raindrops, indeed the thought occurred to me the first time I analysed it. But when one starts examining a text from a grammatical viewpoint it is possible to lose perspective. What first struck me about this text is its tone: naive, simple. This may be accidental, but if it is the author's intended effect, then too much "correctness" might get in the way. It's all very subjective! I'm sure there is not a single right answer here.
C. Dickson (X) (asker) Feb 6, 2009:
IS/ARE I am very thankful for everyone's suggestions and reflections on the problem. I would like Catherine G and Marta F to comment on Tony TK's comments? To my thinking, he has hit the nail on the head. Marydoesn't think the ripples are raindrops, she thinks they are caused by raindrops. Perhaps I will simply need to add this word "caused" to clear the problem up. Marta is correct in noting that it does change the style however.
Marta Scott Feb 5, 2009:
is/are and finding the antecedent Having taken another look at the example text, I agree with Catherine G that the first two probably sound better as THEY ARE, the last two as IT IS.
I've had a go at looking for the antecedent, and I think it is(!) "small silent explosions making circular ripples".
I still think though (see my ref entry below) that the final decision should be based on how the piece reads, in relation to the tone you want. This is not a technical description, after all.
Bon courage!
Kathryn Litherland Feb 5, 2009:
the "find the antecedent" game Here, the antecedent of "it" is "something," which is singular. You don't have to search for some implicit antecedent like "phenomenon" or whatever. It's right in the paragraph already. "Then Bob shows her something ... she thinks it IS raindrops."

If the setup were different ("Bob pointed to the small explosions of bubbles on the surface" or some such), then you might use "she thinks they are..."
carolynf Feb 5, 2009:
phenomena a fairly fundamental starting point here is that "phenomena" is the plural of "phenomenon", therefore "the phenomenon is" and "the phenomena are" and from here we can then move on to **is** it singular or **are** they plural...
Catherine Gilsenan Feb 5, 2009:
IS/ARE I understand what you are getting at with the "phenomenon" idea. This is right to explain the last two instances of "is". In that case, you can say, "it is THE bubbles ...". You can't say, "she thinks it is the raindrops", however, because it just doesn't work, and doesn't sound right either.
Hope this helps.
Catherine Gilsenan Feb 5, 2009:
IS/ARE The last two uses of "IS" is correct (fish breathing, probably the plants). The first two instances, however, are wrong. Although people (lazily) use "is" to express plurality, it is grammatically wrong.

You can say, "she thinks they are raindrops". Also, "she realises they are bubbles ...."

Responses

+7
31 mins
Selected

it depends...

...on the wording and the register

'it is xxx' is often used in vernacular language to describe a situation (famous examples: it's raining, it's cold, it's windy). IMO the last sentence of your text is an instance of this, and there's no need to change it.

However, in the other instances I think you would do better to reword this slightly (and your text will read better if you don't constantly use the same construction). May I suggest:

Then Bob shows her something she never noticed before: on the surface of the water, there are small silent explosions making circular ripples. At first Mary looks up at the sky, because she thinks this is caused by raindrops, but the sky is blue. Then she realizes that bubbles are rising from the bottom and bursting at the surface. Bob says it is the fish breathing, but Mary thinks it is probably the plants.

Note from asker:
Yes, very helpful, thank you. I'll probably use a combination of your and other's solutions in the end.
Peer comment(s):
agree carolynf : absolutely, Ken, the perfect solution here
47 mins
agree Suzan Hamer : Yes, a very good alternative.
2 hrs
agree Gunilla Zedigh
3 hrs
agree Tina Vonhof (X) : very nice.
5 hrs
agree Lalit Sati
5 hrs
neutral Marta Scott : I see where you're coming from, changing the wording may improve it. But it changes the tone slightly, and maybe the original author wanted the sense of simplicity, of repetition. Without more context I'm not sure.
9 hrs
true; the author may have intentionaly used a naive, vernacular tone
agree Alanna Wilson-Duff : I agree with this idiomatic rewording, it flows very naturally. An alternative is to add FROM, i.e. she thinks it's FROM raindrops, etc.
11 hrs
agree Polangmar
1 day 13 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to every one for their comments and discussions. I would especially like to thank Marta France whose comments on tone were very perceptive and whose reference to the empty subject were extremely helpful."
11 mins

they are

I'd honestly sat you should state that THEY ARE RAINDROPS, THEY ARE BUBBLES.
Something went wrong...
+9
13 mins

it is

it (the phenomena) is
You can't say "it are".

That's my way of understanding this.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 mins (2009-02-05 13:49:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I meant to say: it (the phenomenon) is. It is one phenomenon.
Peer comment(s):
agree Nesrin : Agree (from one non-native English speaker to the other :-) )
4 mins
Thanks!
agree kathryn davies
7 mins
Thanks!
agree Jack Doughty
9 mins
Thanks!
agree David Moore (X)
10 mins
Thanks!
agree Lidia Saragaço
25 mins
Thanks!
agree Suzan Hamer : that it is "it is" but for reason given in discussion by Kathryn.
2 hrs
Thanks!
agree Ingeborg Gowans (X)
2 hrs
Thanks!
agree Nicole Y. Adams, M.A.
3 hrs
Thanks!
agree Phong Le
11 hrs
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
+1
24 mins

it is ...

... is correct IMO (and off the top of my head), because if you expressed the idea in full it would be:

" ... because she thinks it is raindrops (that are causing the ripples)"

and

"... she realizes, it is bubbles coming up from the bottom and bursting at the surface of the water (that are causing the ripples)"

If you use "they are", then surely you're saying "the ripples are raindrops" or "the explosions are raindrops" and that makes no sense - to me, at least.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 25 Min. (2009-02-05 14:00:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Maybe I'm saying the same thing as Egil but just in a more prole-like way.
Peer comment(s):
agree Fiorsam : I like the explanation. The use of the singular is like the expression "si tratta di" in Italian
23 mins
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

she thought there were raindrops ( your tense is incorrect)

I believe it should be written like this: It depends on if it is reported speech or narrative speech. But as a native speaker It sounds better like this.

At first... first thought was..

Bursting on the surface... near, Just below, on, just above or above, not at.

probably from the plants... the bubbles need to come from something.
As Bob didn't say it was FROM the fish and just said it was the fish, you would have to say, Mary thought / thinks it was FROM something else.

"Then Bob shows her something she’d never noticed before: on the surface of the water, there were small silent explosions making circular ripples. At first Mary looks up at the sky, because she thought they were raindrops, but the sky is blue, then she realizes the bubbles are coming up from the bottom and bursting on the surface of the water. Bob says it's the fish breathing, but Mary thinks it's probably from the plants."

I know there will be a bit of debate on this, But it is my opinion as a native speaker. If it was in a story book, a play or similar it would have to be this way.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2009-02-05 22:51:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

then she realizes the bubbles are ... second thought is..

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2009-02-06 08:59:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Do a time line on your story.

he shows her... she never saw before..... there were....... at first.....looks up....then she realizes..... are coming......bob Says......Mary Thinks ..

Narrated speech or it is close to being reported speech, certainly third party, therefore it has already happened and is not present perfect.
Note from asker:
Thanks for your suggestion, but I really don't understand why you would mix present simple (shows; looks; is; realizes; says; thinks) with past simple (were; thought). To me this doesn't make sense at all.(?)
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

26 mins
Reference:

Practical English Usage - Michael Swan

An excerpt from this handy reference book under the heading Personal Pronouns (entry 424.7):
IT as an "empty subject":
We use IT as a meaningless subject with expressions that refer to time, weather, temperature, distances, or just the current situation.
Eg: It's ten miles to the nearest petrol station.

I *think* M. Swan's example would cover your situation.

Instinctively my answer to your question would be to keep the singular, if it sounds right. That, surely, is the ultimate test, especially in a literary context?
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Sheila Wilson : agree 100%, and it sounds fine to me as it is
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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