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sacco di politene a “cappuccio millebolle”
in punto di diritto
Feb 29, 2008 13:28
16 yrs ago
Italian term

forze repubblichine

Italian to English Art/Literary History
si parla del 1943-44

Non mi riesce di trovarlo in inglese.

Grazie in anticipo.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 The amed forces of the Italian Social Republic
3 +5 the (armed) forces of the Republic of Salò
5 the forces of the fanatical fascists
4 (italian) social republic forces
4 the Salo' armed forces
4 Troops of the Salo Republic
3 amred forces of the Salo puppet republic

Discussion

texjax DDS PhD (asker) Mar 4, 2008:
Vi ringrazio tutti di cuore per il vostro tempo e le interessanti discussioni. Nel decidere quale delle proposte adottare per il mio testo devo tenere presente il contesto, che mi scuso per non aver potuto includere, il tipo di opera e il pubblico al quale essa è diretta. Tra tutte le validissime risposte ho apprezzato molto anche quella di Jim, ma non credo di poterla utilizzare.
Grazie ancora e buon lavoro a tutti.

Per Gemma: a tuo padre va tutto il mio rispetto.
Gemma Monco Waters Mar 2, 2008:
Luckily he survived and here I am. But, as long as we are alive, we must make people remember that those who forget the mistakes of the past are fated to repeat them. Of course, I did not say that, somebody else did, I don't remember who said right now.
Gemma Monco Waters Mar 2, 2008:
My father was sent to a concentration camp because he was a communist. He had thrown no bombs, he had committed no violent acts, he just disagreed with the views of the fascists. There never was a better man than my father, nor a gentler one.
Russell Jones Mar 2, 2008:
Sorry to get in the way of a serious discussion. I was making a light-hearted comment on the strong views this question was stirring up!
Ivana UK Mar 2, 2008:
No offence taken Jim, I'm quite happy to admit when I'm wrong (or rather, in this case that the De Mauro was wrong)!! I think Russel probably meant that the term "Repubblichino" may cause offence.
James (Jim) Davis Mar 2, 2008:
it detracts from the whole thing.
James (Jim) Davis Mar 2, 2008:
Its an academic point Russell, not a personal point. I have great respect for Ivana as a translator and no offence was intended, and I apologise if any was taken. However if you can't make academic points on Kudoz when you feel they are important, then
Russell Jones Mar 1, 2008:
Maybe you should have classed this one as liable to give offence!
James (Jim) Davis Mar 1, 2008:
tips. which I feel makes the dictionaries obsolete or puts them in a secondary position. They help, but they are no longer the best final answer to the question of meaning.
James (Jim) Davis Mar 1, 2008:
It is a thing of mine I'm afraid Ivana. Dictionaries are built on empirical evidence. The difference between the Ox En Dict. and the Shorter Ox En Dict. is about 10 volumes of quotes. Google gives us thousands/millions of volumes of quotes at our finger..
Ivana UK Mar 1, 2008:
"evitare confusione con «repubblicano» in riferimento alla nuova forma statuale dell'Italia post-bellica. Tale termine, per il senso spregiativo in genere attribuitogli, viene però da taluni considerato offensivo."
Ivana UK Mar 1, 2008:
Jim, just pointing out readily available information & the De Mauro is one of the most reliable Italian dictionaries (granted no dictionary can ever be 100% correct). It does seem to have been used in a derogatory sense and also to
Paul O'Brien Mar 1, 2008:
In: Parole per ricordare, dizionario della memoria collettiva, di M. Castoldi e U. Salvi, Zanichelli, Bologna, 2003, pag. 327.
http://www.secondocircolora.it/Testo/Posta 1943-44.pdf
Paul O'Brien Mar 1, 2008:
L’aggettivo “repubblichino” era già stato usato in senso spregiativo in una lettera di Vittorio Alfieri a Mario Bianchi del 15 aprile 1793: Che belle fughe che han fatto i nostri repubblichini dal 1 marzo fino al 26!.
Paul O'Brien Mar 1, 2008:
"Gli antifascisti usavano in senso spregiativo i termini Repubblichina, repubblichino. Il termine fu introdotto da Umberto Colosso nel 1943 a Radio Londra ed ebbe subito un grande successo.
James (Jim) Davis Mar 1, 2008:
should read: monolingual dictionaries are very much more reliable as bilingual dictionaries, but they are only ever as reliable as the people who wrote them and the work and money and time that went into them.
James (Jim) Davis Mar 1, 2008:
very much more reliable that bilingual dictionaries, but are only ever as reliable as the people who wrote them and the work and money and time that went into them.
James (Jim) Davis Mar 1, 2008:
Ivana, just a point. Do you think that the Garzanti lexicographer had a PhD and specialised in early twentieth century Italian History? One of our posters here does and another has clearly studied this history in detail. I agree that monolingual
Ivana UK Mar 1, 2008:
-- spregevole -- (I always autoamticlly insert an i after the g even though I know it's wrong!!)
Ivana UK Mar 1, 2008:
1 agg., della Repubblica Sociale Italiana: esercito r.
3 s.m. BU spec. al pl., spreg., repubblicano fautore della Rivoluzione francese del 1792

Note that it is not classed as spregievole when used in relation to Salo'.
Ivana UK Mar 1, 2008:
Garzanti classes the term as "spregievole" when used in relation to Fascists of the Republic of Salò / supporters of the fascist Republic of Salò while De Mauro's definition is:
Paul O'Brien Feb 29, 2008:
there is a value judgement (diminutive, pejorative) on the term "repubblichine".

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
Selected

The amed forces of the Italian Social Republic

Republic of Salò was an informal name. Depending on the anture your document (and you don't give much context) you may decide on this more official tag.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2008-02-29 16:00:55 GMT)
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you can also simply say "RSI forces" (having first established what RSI stands for). In his book on Mussolini, Richard Bosworth uses RSI quite a lot.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-02-29 17:42:16 GMT)
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christopher hibbert goes with "Social Republic" and Stanley Payne with "Italian Social Republic". Neither seem to use RSI. However, if the forces you are talking about are the former fascist militia MVSN) then in the RSI these became the National Republican Guard (345,000 men). Also, there were the specific paralimitary units (40,000 men) known as the Black Brigades under the direction of the party ecretary, Alessandro Pavoloni.
Peer comment(s):
agree Mary Carroll Richer LaFlèche
1 hr
agree Ivana UK
2 hrs
agree Desiree Bonfiglio
21 hrs
neutral James (Jim) Davis : "anture" ? Is it a typo for nature or a neologism?
1 day 21 hrs
already contained in the expression RSI. and then, of course, not all their fighting forces need be fascist as such. for example, the italian army was never fascist, but always remained loyal, rather, to the monarchy.
agree Vanda Wilcox (X)
2 days 20 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Molte grazie Paul"
+5
8 mins

the (armed) forces of the Republic of Salò

Non mi viene niente di meglio al momento. Il Picchi per "repubblichino" indica (s.m. e a.): supporter of the Republic of Salò.
Direi che puoi anche usare "Salò Republic". forse è più comune "army" ma non copre tutte le opzioni.
Ciao!
Peer comment(s):
agree Katia Siddi
43 mins
Grazie, Katiuscia
agree simon tanner
46 mins
Thank you, Simon
agree Ivana UK : yes, I think this is the best option
59 mins
Thanks :-)
agree Roberta Tabolacci
1 hr
Grazie!
agree Umberto Cassano
3 hrs
Grazie, Umberto
neutral moranna (X) : Repubblica Sociale Italiana, nota impropriamente anche come Repubblica di Salò
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
24 mins

the forces of the fanatical fascists

what were they, after all?
Peer comment(s):
neutral simon tanner : Fascist may be used as an insult, but is also a standard descriptive term. The Fascist Party is the Fascist Party - there's no other way of saying it. Fanatical (unlike the abbreviation 'fan') almost always implies criticism
16 mins
which of the two words has a bad connotation, fanatical or fascist? For some people the definition is not an insult, but high praise
neutral Paul O'Brien : The specifically paralimitary units were known as the Black Brigades. Yes, I agree, and I am now thinking htat the word "fascist" should be included in the translation.
5 hrs
whatever term you choose, my dear, make it sure that people, who do not know the history of that period and did not suffer the consequences of that tragical war, like my parents, understand that repubblichino is a derogatory term.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

amred forces of the Salo puppet republic

Its a derisory term. repubblichine not repubblicane
Something went wrong...
8 hrs

(italian) social republic forces

Per indicare militari e politici che si trovavano sotto le armi o collaboravano con la Repubblica Sociale e in generale come aggettivo per riferirsi alla RSI, si iniziò quindi ad utilizzare il termine «repubblichino», coniato ed utilizzato per la prima volta in Francia dalla nobiltà di quel Paese con intento spregiativo per definire tutti i repubblicani fautori della rivoluzione.
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

the Salo' armed forces

....assuming the reader knows all about the the Republic of Salo'...senno' e' ardua la cosa !

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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-02-29 19:07:42 GMT)
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the source text puts no gloss or value judgment on the term. It is used with complete objectivity. Therefore the translator, in my opinion, should avoid tendentious (anche se condivisibili) translations !

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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-03-01 01:10:10 GMT)
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I see these devils are still not placated.... maybe we need more context, to work out whether the writer is intentionally trying to make a point about how bad the RSI was, or on the other hand is simply mentioning it en passant.....
Peer comment(s):
neutral Paul O'Brien : stretching it a bit. "repubblichino" is a pejorative term. most certainly not "completely objective". detached according to himself, not according to many others. but my point is not that you're wrong, just overdoing it a bit.
3 hrs
I never thought of it as pejorative; De Felice, the most detached of historians, uses it all the time.....
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

Troops of the Salo Republic

The puppet state which Hitler created for his good friend Mussolini in Northern Italy (1943-1945). Reminds me of the Gothic Line (Linea Gotica) constructed by the Nazis to prevent the Allies from reaching the pianura padana. At a certain time the legendary Desert Fox (Rommel) commanded the Italian front.

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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-02-29 21:25:06 GMT)
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...of WWII, after Hitler refused to evacuate the Africa Korps from North Africa (1943). Rommel lost those troops. Hitler let him command in Italy. Later he commanded the defense of the famous 'Europa Festung". You better do some serious reading man. I have been studying this guy for over 35 years.

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Note added at 17 hrs (2008-03-01 07:05:48 GMT)
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A nice Wikipedia entry (especially the English one) about the RSI
(Italin Social Republic ). They confirmed the dates I gave 1943-45 and also call it Puppet stae of Nazi Germany or client state of Nazi Germany.

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Note added at 18 hrs (2008-03-01 07:29:28 GMT)
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For the history buffs here, Mussolini was in prison in a hotel in the Gran Sasso mountains. So Hitler sent his guerilla specialist Otto Skorzeni to rescue him (Skorzeni was not commanding the operation but Goebbels saw a propagandad benefit in sayin he did). Mussolini was made foreign minister of the Salo republic. His son in law (married to Edda daughter of Musso.) count Ciano fled to Germany, was arrested and brought back to RSI to be tried and shot (Musso. had to do it to his son in law). Ciano's Diaries were smuggled into Switzernald by Edda and published.
Note from asker:
So, my kudoz revealed the source of inspiration for your nickname? ;-)
Peer comment(s):
neutral Paul O'Brien : yes, you're right, he was commander in northern italy for a few months in 1943.
3 hrs
I don't have accents on this keyboard. Indeed Rommel got the highest German medal for his bravour (barvura) in the first world war. He pestered the GHQ for years until he got it. The second such medal awarded. He also fought in Romania. But I was talking
neutral Gemma Monco Waters : Rommel was the only person I admired of that band of murderers, my dear desert fox. You did well in taking his name
1 day 15 hrs
Well when he had Jewish soldiers taken prisoners in the battles of Al Alamein, he had them released since he knew what awaits them in the concentration camps. Admired even by his greatest foes the British.
Something went wrong...
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