| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | How to motivate freelancers: would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? Thread poster: Sebastijan P
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Hello!
Let's see what can ProZ.com members brainstorm for the following issue.
We have a translator and a checker.
Let's say we have a specific field (IT, automotive etc).
Translator No.1 translates a project.
Translator No.2 performs a review of the translation (checks original and translation, looks for all sorts of terminology issues etc.). This translator is more experienced than translator No.1. An authority, if you wish.
... See more Hello!
Let's see what can ProZ.com members brainstorm for the following issue.
We have a translator and a checker.
Let's say we have a specific field (IT, automotive etc).
Translator No.1 translates a project.
Translator No.2 performs a review of the translation (checks original and translation, looks for all sorts of terminology issues etc.). This translator is more experienced than translator No.1. An authority, if you wish.
Translator No.1 is paid let's say 0,10 eurocent per word, Translator No.2 is paid 0,12 for translation and 0,XX for review.
At what point would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? How much more can you review for how much lower price than 0,12 cents per word (you would get 0,12 for translation, not review).
I know money is usally the only motivator, but I am sure we can find some more motivational points .
Kind regards,
S.
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2008-10-02 20:12] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Attila Piróth 
France
Local time: 01:16
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Aim at a long-term relationship with two equally good translators | Oct 2, 2008 |
1. Establish a long-term relationship with two translators who are equally good. They can become very good colleagues. If one is an authority with respect to the other, the chances for this are slim.
2. Let them decide who will take which task. By seeing both sides, they are likely to understand each other and each task better
3. Let them discuss the things between themselves, sending only the final version to the agency/client. It is much easier to say "Yes, you are right, this mis... See more 1. Establish a long-term relationship with two translators who are equally good. They can become very good colleagues. If one is an authority with respect to the other, the chances for this are slim.
2. Let them decide who will take which task. By seeing both sides, they are likely to understand each other and each task better
3. Let them discuss the things between themselves, sending only the final version to the agency/client. It is much easier to say "Yes, you are right, this mistake was a howler, I completely overlooked it" to a colleague when there is no agency to whom you would lose face. And this solution also leaves room for preferential stylistic changes - which are often refused by a simple comment like "overzealous proofreader, these modifications are inessential, they are just are synonyms".
As for the money part: let each of them give the agency their prices; translation per word and editing by the hour. If they are set appropriately, neither will be very much favored when the task should be chosen. (I mean, the translator will earn more but will work almost proportionally more.) If their prices are similar, it should not make a big difference for the agency, either.
Best regards,
Attila ▲ Collapse
| | | | Agnieszka Hayward (X)
Poland
Local time: 01:16
German to Polish
+ ...
| Just a technical comment | Oct 2, 2008 |
PICOW wrote:
Translator No.1 is paid let's say 0,10 eurocent per word.
Surely, you mean 0.10 euro, that is 10 eurocent ?
At what point would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job?
Personally? Never, unless it's for a very good friend. But then, I'm not a reviewer.
Regards,
Agnieszka
[Edited at 2008-10-02 20:57]
| | | | | When the subject is interesting | Oct 2, 2008 |
I only accept doing a review when I like the subject. Doing one at the moment (or rather a few documents). Highly specialised and extremely current (in the news). Very interesting and informative. I earn more translating so from a business perspective, it makes no sense.
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 01:16
Spanish to English
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| Money isn't the only motivation | Oct 2, 2008 |
PICOW wrote: At what point would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? How much more can you review for how much lower price than 0,12 cents per word (you would get 0,12 for translation, not review). I know money is usally the only motivator, but I am sure we can find some more motivational points .
I hardly ever review translations any more, it's just too frustrating. I do review a lot of non-native speakers (NNS) writing about their subject area (research articles).
What's the difference?
It's difficult to pardon a translator passing themselves off as a professional writer when they clearly are not. That makes the job frustrating from the outset. The worse the translation - NO MATTER HOW MUCH ONE IS BEING PAID (up to the equivalent rate for a re-translation) - the more frustrating and irritating the experience.
And - on the few occasions when I've revised directly for a translator - they sometimes get a bit upset. The most recent case was someone who opened the revised text, saw all the red marks, got upset and told me so. I defended my perspective, and a few days later - all credit to the translator - my contribution was acknowledged.
That scenario of the "upset" translator isn't that unusual - after all, many translations aren't revised at all, and many translators work as individuals, not as teams, so it's difficult to be "peer-reviewed" and take it on the chin. Some of my work - not all - is reviewed and I love it: I learn and the translation is ultimately as close to perfection as one could expect.
The advantage of revising the NNS text is that the author rarely has any pretensions about being a professional writer. And, unlike the fairly typical translator-reviser scenario, dialogue is possible and invariably fruitful.
Returning to the issue of revision, I firmly support it, as it has a lot to do with us translators being forced to stop hiding behind our "invisible" translations and to become accountable. We also need to see our translations through other people's eyes.
If you want to discuss money, first of all, translation quality is very, very uneven, so the first issue would be for agencies to actually put in place some guarantees for a MINIMUM quality of the translation BEFORE asking about revision rates.
Secondly, in Spain, native EN revisers are VERY underpaid (those who work for university language depts - usually NNS texts - and agencies - usually translations). At the rates offered by these bodies in Spain, it's far more profitable and far less frustrating to translate.
[Edited at 2008-10-02 22:51]
By the way, in accordance with the EN15038 translation standard, the issue being discussed here is REVISION (conducted by a second, more experienced translator who goes over a text and compares it with the original). A REVIEW is something that few translations are likely to undergo: it's about a field expert reviewing the final text -no comparison to the original - to ensure that it appropriate to the field in the target language (e.g., a lawyer reviewing statutes.
[Edited at 2008-10-02 22:58]
| | | | Anne Bohy
France
Local time: 01:16
English to French
| Choose the best for translation, have the other proofread | Oct 3, 2008 |
That's the best way for Translator 1 to improve...
Otherwise, you're trying to make Translator 2 pay the price for the savings that you make contracting the translation to Translator 1.
If Translator 2 is very good, there is a point where he will be tired of it, and will drop you as a customer.
My two cents (and yours too).
| | | | | Not for all the money in the world... | Oct 3, 2008 |
... would I proofread most of the translation work in my language pair. On the other hand, I do rather enjoy checking translations from a few highly competent colleagues. It's an absolute delight to see how some of them unravel the knots in the source language.
I do detailed reviews of "substandard" translations only for purposes of documenting quality to resolve a dispute. My partner has a bit more patience than I do and revises other texts, but "ingesting" a lot of bad English in ... See more ... would I proofread most of the translation work in my language pair. On the other hand, I do rather enjoy checking translations from a few highly competent colleagues. It's an absolute delight to see how some of them unravel the knots in the source language.
I do detailed reviews of "substandard" translations only for purposes of documenting quality to resolve a dispute. My partner has a bit more patience than I do and revises other texts, but "ingesting" a lot of bad English in proofreading work tends to affect the quality of my own writing over time, so I avoid bad translations like rat poison. In fact, years ago I dropped an agency customer who tried to insist that all freelancers on the team "must" do reviews. I wouldn't have minded so much if they had accepted that the reviews would only be for translators I had personally vetted.
I like bohy's suggestion. Assuming that the reviewer is basically competent, this is a great opportunity for that person to absorb good style and focus on the few things in the translator's work that may require attention. If the reviewer is a monkey, this will also quickly become obvious from inappropriate "corrections". On the whole, the process will probably cost less. What you save by letting a less competent translator do the translation is often lost in the review. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 16:16
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| 0,12 for translation and 0,03 for review | Oct 3, 2008 |
When I receive a request to proofread a translation, I respond that I can proofread the source language>English document for 0,XX/word with delivery on XX/XX/XX, provided that the translation has been done by a qualified source language>English translator and does not require extensive changes.
For this I charge 25% of my per word translation rate.
If, after seeing the document, I determine that the translation has not been done by a qualified source language>English tr... See more When I receive a request to proofread a translation, I respond that I can proofread the source language>English document for 0,XX/word with delivery on XX/XX/XX, provided that the translation has been done by a qualified source language>English translator and does not require extensive changes.
For this I charge 25% of my per word translation rate.
If, after seeing the document, I determine that the translation has not been done by a qualified source language>English translator, I reject the job or offer to translate the source document at my usual rate.
[Edited at 2008-10-03 20:36] ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 00:16
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Many proofreading jobs are done quite quickly | Oct 3, 2008 |
I know there are many exceptions (eg a 20-word translation and proofreading a book), but on average proofreading is faster and therefore more easily interleaved with other commitments.
As a part-time language trainer, part-time translator, I find it has some advantages.
Of course, you have to be careful not to accept a proofreading job that turns out to be a re-translating job!
| | | | Krys Williams
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:16
Member (2003)
Polish to English
+ ...
| Swings and roundabouts | Oct 4, 2008 |
I do quite a lot revision and rather like "turning a sow's ear into a silk purse" most of the time. Most clients respect my minimum fee, which is equivalent to one hour at my hourly rate. Thus, short, competently translated texts can be quite lucrative as they can sometimes take far less than one hour. For longer texts, I quote for reviewing on the assumption that I can cover 1000 words per hour. Some take me a bit less time, some a bit more, so generally it evens out. However sometimes I've had... See more I do quite a lot revision and rather like "turning a sow's ear into a silk purse" most of the time. Most clients respect my minimum fee, which is equivalent to one hour at my hourly rate. Thus, short, competently translated texts can be quite lucrative as they can sometimes take far less than one hour. For longer texts, I quote for reviewing on the assumption that I can cover 1000 words per hour. Some take me a bit less time, some a bit more, so generally it evens out. However sometimes I've had a really appalling translation to correct and the job has taken far, far longer than expected. In such situations, I tell the agency exactly how bad the translation is and how long it's taken me to correct it. I then expect to be paid for the true time required. An agency that refuses to do so will find that I am always "fully booked" when they try to get me to work for them again, whether as translator or reviewer.
The only reviewing I do is where I make direct changes to the document, using "track changes" if required. I absolutely refuse to touch reviewing which also involves filling out a long quality control form, where I am expected to classify each error by type and by level of severity. That together with actually making the corrections takes more time than translating from scratch. ▲ Collapse
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 01:16
French to Dutch
+ ...
| I once worked in this way | Oct 4, 2008 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
1. Establish a long-term relationship with two translators who are equally good. They can become very good colleagues. If one is an authority with respect to the other, the chances for this are slim.
2. Let them decide who will take which task. By seeing both sides, they are likely to understand each other and each task better
3. Let them discuss the things between themselves, sending only the final version to the agency/client.
But we were already colleagues. We decided by phone which terminology to use and got back to the client with a finished product. It was the ideal situation, I learnt lots of things in a few time. It didn't last for long; the agency has been eaten up by a bigger one.
PICOW's solution is the next best one: have a the best translator review. I suppose it will always be the same two persons for the same end client. But good translators rarely have time and prefer translating instead of revising, and experts (say doctors for medical translations) are incredibly expensive.
Bohy's solution (have the best translator translate) is a very tricky one: you always end up in having the proofreader modify things that he or she shouldn't modify and is the best way to make you loose your clients.
There is also another solution I once came across for an agency. For each job there were two translators and sometimes translator 1 was the translator and 2 the proofreader, and for the next job this changed. There was no communication between the two translators and we ended up in changing terminology and style over and over and the end client wondered why his corrections weren't applied and why old errors came back.
And there is the solution where the agency asks the translator to have the translation revised by a third party: in this case the agency is handing over project management and all parties will feel uncomfortable.
Finally I prefer the last solution: no revision by the agency, only the end client makes comments, gives positive feedback and the translator takes them into account.
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I have recently started doing some QA for an agency. I really enjoy it because the translations are always very good, the agency provides me with style guides, glossaries, a good QA form and I am paid by the hour (the agency tells me how much time I can spend on a given project and this amount of time is generous enough for me to do a very thorough job). I also had initial training.
The motivator in this job is the way the agency treats me - decent pay, good deadlines, interesting w... See more I have recently started doing some QA for an agency. I really enjoy it because the translations are always very good, the agency provides me with style guides, glossaries, a good QA form and I am paid by the hour (the agency tells me how much time I can spend on a given project and this amount of time is generous enough for me to do a very thorough job). I also had initial training.
The motivator in this job is the way the agency treats me - decent pay, good deadlines, interesting work and help when I need it. They refer to their freelancers as their partners and they are always very polite. ▲ Collapse
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| The perfect match | Oct 5, 2008 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
Establish a long-term relationship with two translators who are equally good. They can become very good colleagues. If one is an authority with respect to the other, the chances for this are slim.
I am paired up with a colleague in this way. Actually we were first introduced to each other by one agency, who has been using our joint services for some three years already.
Some interesting facts:
- This is not for any ethical reason, nor from any commitment we've made, but we never worked together for anyone else, nor have referred each other to any client.
- We are originally from different states in Brazil, but now she lives abroad some 4-6 time zones behind me, depending on the time of the year, viz. DST. This significantly shortens our turnaround time in large jobs, as on any day I start working long before she wakes up, and she still has several working hours ahead when I go to sleep.
- This agency tried now and then to pair up each of us with someone else, and it didn't work so well. Whenever they need quick, top quality service in our pair, they call us two first.
- We don't refrain from changing ANYthing in the other's work. It's not a matter of hurting each other's feelings. Of course now and then there are typos or mistakes. But we take each other's changes as an invitation to "think it over, we can make this better". Sometimes she changes a word or phrase I've chosen, and gives 1-3 other options. In most cases, mine and hers together prompt me to yet another, even better solution. The same happens when our roles are reversed.
- The PMs at the agency don't have/use Skype, but we do. Whenever there is a more delicate or difficult issue, we talk it over, and solve the problem quickly.
Attila Piróth wrote:
2. Let them decide who will take which task. By seeing both sides, they are likely to understand each other and each task better
Nope, the agency does that, but we are free to indicate our preference in each project, taking into account other commitments and personal issues.
Attila Piróth wrote:
3. Let them discuss the things between themselves, sending only the final version to the agency/client.
This is a different agency, they do care about quality in all details, no matter how minor, so they follow through, not only up. So we do explain to them (in English) the rationale for all major or sensitive decisions.
Attila Piróth wrote:
As for the money part: let each of them give the agency their prices; translation per word and editing by the hour. If they are set appropriately, neither will be very much favored when the task should be chosen. (I mean, the translator will earn more but will work almost proportionally more.) If their prices are similar, it should not make a big difference for the agency, either.
Correct. As we live in different countries, I don't know how much she gets, and I guess she doesn't know how much I do. But we set our rates.
Overall, it's very motivating to work in this setup. A PM who is smart enough to be willing to set up a "golden team" for each language pair they have demand for will be on the fast track to success. The golden team will always be willing to do their best for them.
| | | | Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 01:16
English
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| Rumpelstiltskin | Oct 5, 2008 |
Krys Williams wrote:
I do quite a lot revision and rather like "turning a sow's ear into a silk purse" most of the time.
Yes, same here. When I proofread or edit I often feel like the king's daughter in Rumpelstiltskin, "spinning straw into gold." I call it "Rumpelstiltskining." (To myself, of course.)
| | | | | If not for the money, it's for friendship...what else? | Oct 17, 2008 |
PICOW wrote: At what point would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? How much more can you review for how much lower price than 0,12 cents per word (you would get 0,12 for translation, not review). I know money is usally the only motivator, but I am sure we can find some more motivational points . Kind regards, S. [Subject edited by staff or moderator 2008-10-02 20:12]
Well, proofreading is still an opportunity....yes, somtime is frustarting. But necessary.
Often, it would be better to translate over again...I normally review translations into Italian form eastern languages. And OMG, it's mandatory the review!
In certain conditions, proofreaders should be paid right like translators...
I guess, that is something to convaine as soon as you relize how deep is the review.
However, I accept to review...no problem. If I can still pay the bills with it!
Cheers
Loredana
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