| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2] | Etonnement pour ne pas dire autre chose Initiator des Themas: Jean-Luc Dumont
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JCEC 
Kanada
Local time: 18:16
Englisch > Französisch
| Bon dimanche | Mar 23, 2003 |
Chers collègues,
Nous vivons des temps difficiles : Les nerfs et les susceptibilités sont à vif, le niveau de stress et le sentiment d\'impuissance sont intenses.
Avec leur bon sens habituel, Gilles et Alain font une excellente suggestion. Si vous devez poser une question qui peut être perçue comme de la politique, banalisez la question ou jouez cartes sur table sans prendre position dans un sens ou dans l\'autre. Ce que nous souhaitons éviter, ce ... See more Chers collègues,
Nous vivons des temps difficiles : Les nerfs et les susceptibilités sont à vif, le niveau de stress et le sentiment d\'impuissance sont intenses.
Avec leur bon sens habituel, Gilles et Alain font une excellente suggestion. Si vous devez poser une question qui peut être perçue comme de la politique, banalisez la question ou jouez cartes sur table sans prendre position dans un sens ou dans l\'autre. Ce que nous souhaitons éviter, ce sont les membres qui affichent leurs convictions ou leurs griefs sous forme de questions KudoZ et nous en avons tous vu.
J\'étais content de revoir Arthur et Jacek. Je sais qu\'ils sont mal à l\'aise avec le règlement de ProZ.com et je respecte leur point de vue. Je ne pense pas m\'avancer en disant qu\'ils ont gagné l\'estime de notre communauté et qu\'on aurait de la peine à les voir nous bouder.
Henry veut éviter les dérapages. Un grand nombre de sites Internet sont présentement aux prises avec des querelles qui virent en insultes. Des professionnels de haut calibre en sont venus aux mains et, lorsque tout sera terminé, ils ne seront plus capables de se parler, ni de se respecter. Quel gâchis !
Il nous faudra être particulièrement prudents et attentifs pendant quelques temps encore. En dépit des divergences d\'opinion, nous aimons tous ProZ.com et nous souhaitons continuer à nous y sentir bien.
Bon dimanche,
John ▲ Collapse
| | | | Arnaud HERVE
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
| d'accord avec tout le monde | Mar 23, 2003 |
D\'un côté, je trouve que les Etats-Unis ne sont plus un pays démocratique quand on parle de la guerre et de la paix.
D\'un autre côté, j\'ai vu sur un site d\'aikido récemment une très longue polémique sur la Palestine. Et ben çà gache un peu le site, quand-même.
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Je dirais encore plus moins | Mar 23, 2003 |
Alain
\"support\" est un terme déjà lourd de connotations contestables
Don\'t (verb) XXX in YYY.
JL
PS - je tiens sérieusement à rappeler que la question supprimée ne comportait pas les mots tendancieux : \"in YYY\" - mais se limitait à juste les mots : Don\'t verb XXX
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Pas d'amalgame | Mar 23, 2003 |
Tout à fait d\'accord avec toi sylver - pour une fois - que tu ne fais pas ta mâle gamme  . Les Kudoz et les forums sont deux choses entièrement séparées.
La section questions / réponses n\'est pas le lieu pour la controverse - c\'est un outil de travail qui pâtirait énormément de toute récupération de ce genre. Cela pénaliserait injustement les traducteurs travaillant sur des sujets délicats - politiques, religieu... See more Tout à fait d\'accord avec toi sylver - pour une fois - que tu ne fais pas ta mâle gamme . Les Kudoz et les forums sont deux choses entièrement séparées.
La section questions / réponses n\'est pas le lieu pour la controverse - c\'est un outil de travail qui pâtirait énormément de toute récupération de ce genre. Cela pénaliserait injustement les traducteurs travaillant sur des sujets délicats - politiques, religieux ou autres, car tout peut prêter à controverse - qui auraient des questions fort légitimes.
Toute question peut prêter à controverse - suivant le point de vue de chacun ou le ton du texte à traduire :
Les questions sur la pilule ou l\'avortement, le racisme, le diesel, l\'environnement, la viande de cheval ou de lapin pour les Anglais , je ne parle pas du porc - trop tendancieux en ce moment, le nucléaire
le Coca-Cola, la Feta pour les Grecs , le sexisme..., le sexe....on y a arrive, toutes les questions d\'argot que certains peuvent trouver vulgaires et déplacées dans un forum professionnel.
Bizarre non : On peut \"tremper son biscuit\" dans Proz - mais si , mais pas \"supporter ou ne pas supporter XXX\"
A plus
Jean-Luc
PS - je voudrais \"profiter de ce forum\" (c\'est l\'expression pour saluer le courage de quelques irréductibles Français (et de quelques Belges qui n\'ont pas cédé à la provocation et ont résisté - faisant preuve d\'un grand self-contrôle à la question controversée sur les \"no more/no longer French fries\" - à ma connaissance aucun de nous, à la sensibilité \"Gallic\" exacerbée, quand pas exaspérente et souvent incriminée, n\'a exigé que cette question soit supprimée.
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-23 22:09] ▲ Collapse
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[ This Message was edited by: Sabbath on 2003-05-10 20:57]
| | | | Libero_Lang_Lab
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 23:16
Russisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Les mots de paix (les mots justes) | Mar 24, 2003 |
Si je decide de poser la question suivante dans Kudoz ca veut dire que je suis un agent provocateur? \"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind...War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.\"
... parce que ces sont les meme mots qui se trouvent ici: http://www.proz.com/?sp=peace
... See more Si je decide de poser la question suivante dans Kudoz ca veut dire que je suis un agent provocateur? \"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind...War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.\"
... parce que ces sont les meme mots qui se trouvent ici: http://www.proz.com/?sp=peace
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mohandas K. Gandhi
Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind...War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
-- John F. Kennedy
Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal.
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized peace.
-- Woodrow Wilson
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
-- Salvor Hardin
Violence does, in truth, recoil upon the violent, and the schemer falls into the pit which he digs for another.
-- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
They are not following dharma who resort to violence to achieve their purpose. But those who lead others through nonviolent means, knowing right and wrong, may be called guardians of the dharma.
-- Buddha
Peace by persuasion has a pleasant sound, but I think we should not be able to work it. We should have to tame the human race first, and history seems to show that that cannot be done.
-- Mark Twain
When life is victorious, there is birth; when it is thwarted, there is death. A warrior is always engaged in a life-and-death struggle for Peace.
-- Morihei Ueshiba
Many speak of Peace without knowing love. Peace sprouts from the root of Love.
-- Agostino of Ippona
Which kind of begs the question whether ProZ should ban itself from ProZ....
[ This Message was edited by: The Tautologist on 2003-03-24 00:29] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Pas d'amalgame bis | Mar 24, 2003 |
Dan
I agree you make a very relevant and (im)pertinent point but I also think that equating controversy in the Kudoz section to questions of \"War and Peace\" (touchy topic today) is limiting and self-defeating (no pun intended) for it can be tainted and pass for an expression of anti-Americanism or anti-US government, to avoid any confusion.
I agree that no question unless proven guilty - as long as they are legitimate (no plain stupid, and not accompan... See more Dan
I agree you make a very relevant and (im)pertinent point but I also think that equating controversy in the Kudoz section to questions of \"War and Peace\" (touchy topic today) is limiting and self-defeating (no pun intended) for it can be tainted and pass for an expression of anti-Americanism or anti-US government, to avoid any confusion.
I agree that no question unless proven guilty - as long as they are legitimate (no plain stupid, and not accompanied by sarcastic or agressive comments) should be banned, squashed or rejected for we translators can be called upon to work on any topic. I also think that people asking questions should have a legitimate profile.
JL
Excuse my English in this forum
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-24 00:51]
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-24 01:48] ▲ Collapse
| | | | sylver
Local time: 06:16
Englisch > Französisch
Quote:
On 2003-03-24 00:45, JLDSF wrote:
I agree that no question unless proven guilty - as long as they are legitimate (no plain stupid, and not accompanied by sarcastic or agressive comments) should be banned, squashed or rejected for we translators can be called upon to work on any topic. JL
Amen! L\'évangile selon JL.
\"And We, at Proz, believe
That no question shal... See more Quote:
On 2003-03-24 00:45, JLDSF wrote:
I agree that no question unless proven guilty - as long as they are legitimate (no plain stupid, and not accompanied by sarcastic or agressive comments) should be banned, squashed or rejected for we translators can be called upon to work on any topic. JL
Amen! L\'évangile selon JL.
\"And We, at Proz, believe
That no question shall be deemed guilty, as long as it is not proven, or plain to all, the question was not a bona fide request for terminological help;
That a question has the right to interpell the kindness of the technical experts in the field thus concerned;
That a question holds inalienable rights to retain it\'s own dignity and shall not to be removed, mocked, banned or otherwise attacked so long as it remains, in good faith, a legitimate question;
That a question should not be punished, tortured or brutalized;
{If Respect>0 then
That authors of the questions have rigths to the same respect that their questions command;
That[...]
That the author of this creed is missing sleep and should be allowed to jump on his bed as soon as this message is posted.\"
Que la xxx cesse et que la yyy règne sur la ttt, si possible
Ainsi soit il.
Bonne nuit
Sylver ▲ Collapse
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Giuliana Buscaglione
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 15:16
Mitglied (2001)
Deutsch > Italienisch
+ ...
| FAQs, 7 Forum, 7.7 Why are political and controversial topics banned? | Mar 26, 2003 |
Quote:
Why are political and controversial topics banned?
It is the hope of the site founder that no matter what were to happen in the \"real\" world, we would still have a virtual zone here at ProZ.com in which people of many cultures--and conflicting views--can work together on language, in peace.
Therefore, it has always been the site\'s policy to *immediately* remove any posting that is not related to language and *has any chan... See more Quote:
Why are political and controversial topics banned?
It is the hope of the site founder that no matter what were to happen in the \"real\" world, we would still have a virtual zone here at ProZ.com in which people of many cultures--and conflicting views--can work together on language, in peace.
Therefore, it has always been the site\'s policy to *immediately* remove any posting that is not related to language and *has any chance* of being controversial. Site and forum moderators have been asked to do the same.
You may expect this policy to be applied consistently to all controversial postings, without respect to the personal views of the moderators. (So when a topic is locked or removed, this is no indication of the personal viewpoint of the person locking it.) Please allow some consideration for the fact that moderators are not always on duty, and it may take hours or even days for a posting to be closed.
There are other, appropriate channels for politics--and those channels are much more effective than this site.
End of Quote
ProZ.com moderators
That\'s all, folks.
[addsig] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Sorry if this bug's bunny you :-) (That's all folks :-) | Mar 26, 2003 |
Hello in English
I think you and the moderator missed the point of my \"étonnement\" - (surprise)
\"There are other, appropriate channels for politics--and those channels are much more effective than this site.\"
I am aware of, I understand and I respect Proz\'s policy. I even took side and appreciated JCEC\'s moderation on that issue a few weeks ago.
I understand that forums are not meant to be controversial t... See more Hello in English
I think you and the moderator missed the point of my \"étonnement\" - (surprise)
\"There are other, appropriate channels for politics--and those channels are much more effective than this site.\"
I am aware of, I understand and I respect Proz\'s policy. I even took side and appreciated JCEC\'s moderation on that issue a few weeks ago.
I understand that forums are not meant to be controversial to the risk of creating tensions between members and spoiling this \"friendly\" environment.
My interrogation is about what makes a translation question to be controversial. Is it controversial simply because it is related to a topic that is in the News? I answered a question that could have been asked for the translation of a newspaper article. There was no sarcasm nor any controversial comment attached to it and it was treated respectfully in all answers and comments to the answers. People were free to make it controversial or not - like any other topic, but it was just a question in the kudoz section, not a forum topic.
A question on the death of Dolly the sheep can be controversial as well. A question on a full-metal jacket bullet can be seen as controversial as well, no?
Are questions about technical characteristics of missiles currently used controversial or not? I often translate nuclear related documents. Iraq is currently said to have purchased special tubes for nuclear facilities - can I ask a question on that document I have to translate if I need to or is that a no-no?
Controversial is very subjective. Is there a list of \"key\" words banned in the question/kudoz section so nobody makes a \"Faux-Pas\"?
Your understanding answer is welcome - such a dialogue is healthy - I do not \"that\'all folk\'s\" people...even tongue in cheek...for fear it may become \"langue de bois\"
I didn\'t mean to be stubborn or disrespectful.
Regards
Jean-Luc Dumont
What is the scope of \"politics\" and the extent of \"not allowed\" questions (kudoz questions I mean): US elections or elections in any country, taxes, abortion, Supreme Court debates, Medicare, welfare, HMOs, sodomy laws, Prayers at school, United Nations Organization, current political leaders, SUVs and gas mileage, death penalty, drugs, sexual harassment, affirmative action ?
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-26 18:24]
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-26 18:27]
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-26 18:42] ▲ Collapse
| | | | sylver
Local time: 06:16
Englisch > Französisch
| Applying judgement | Mar 26, 2003 |
Quote:
On 2003-03-26 16:54, docgy wrote:
Quote:
Therefore, it has always been the site\'s policy to *immediately* remove any posting that is not related to language and *has any chance* of being controversial.
End of Quote
ProZ.com moderators
That\'s all, folks.
It sounds great, but it does require judgement nevertheless. Think ab... See more Quote:
On 2003-03-26 16:54, docgy wrote:
Quote:
Therefore, it has always been the site\'s policy to *immediately* remove any posting that is not related to language and *has any chance* of being controversial.
End of Quote
ProZ.com moderators
That\'s all, folks.
It sounds great, but it does require judgement nevertheless. Think about it. Do you know *any* statement, sentence or word which is not open to start a controversy?
Such a think does not exist, strictly speaking. Everything has *some* chances of being controversial.
It is still just a matter of people making choices and taking decisions on what should go and what should not, don\'t you think?
Banning a word request because it contains the phrase \"no to war\" is not making real sense to me. There ought to be some logical thinking, somewhere. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Florence Bremond
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Mitglied (2002)
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
| La question en question | Mar 26, 2003 |
La question susnommée a été squashée pour les raisons suivantes :
- Elle ressemblait beaucoup plus à un slogan qu\'à autre chose. Aucun contexte suggérant que ce soit une traduction.
- La question a apparemment été posée et squashée dans d\'autres paires de langues en même temps.
- Le demandeur, non inscrit et inconnu sur le site, n\'a pas répondu à ma demande d\'explications.
Si tu pose une question sur l\'armement:
... See more La question susnommée a été squashée pour les raisons suivantes :
- Elle ressemblait beaucoup plus à un slogan qu\'à autre chose. Aucun contexte suggérant que ce soit une traduction.
- La question a apparemment été posée et squashée dans d\'autres paires de langues en même temps.
- Le demandeur, non inscrit et inconnu sur le site, n\'a pas répondu à ma demande d\'explications.
Si tu pose une question sur l\'armement:
- Tu es connu sur le site, tout le monde sait que tu es traducteur et qu\'il y a des chances que ce soit pour une traduction.
-Si je t\'écris pour te demander des explications, en cas de doute, il y a également des chances que tu me répondes.
Par contre si je t\'envoie un mail pour te demander des explications et que tu ne me réponds pas, tu comprendras aisément que mes doutes iront augmentant.
Florence \"Oddie\"
Mod Eng>Fr ▲ Collapse
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Giuliana Buscaglione
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 15:16
Mitglied (2001)
Deutsch > Italienisch
+ ...
| A terminology request is not controversial | Mar 26, 2003 |
[quote]
On 2003-03-26 18:10, JLDSF wrote:
Hello in English
My interrogation is about what makes a translation question to be controversial. Is it controversial simply because it is related to a topic that is in the News? I answered a question that could have been asked for the translation of a newspaper article. There was no sarcasm nor any controversial comment attached to it and it was treated respectfully in all answers and comments to the answers. People were free to make it controversial or not - like any other topic, but it was just a question in the kudoz section, not a forum topic.
Hi Jean-Luc,
I can\'t reply in French, sorry for this.
No politics means no political statements. I am aware that many of us might be already translating articles and need help. The border line is the difference between a legitimate terminology request and a political statement.
I would never squash a terminology request of any kind. A little bit of context and a clear explanation from the asker could be the solution.
It is a fact that the KudoZ area has been misused by some colleagues for posting personal comments or views, that\'s why statements, even from a text to be translated, without any further context or words from the asker may be misunderstood as in conflict with site policy.
Jean-Luc worte:
Are questions about technical characteristics of missiles currently used controversial or not? I often translate nuclear related documents. Iraq is currently said to have purchased special tubes for nuclear facilities - can I ask a question on that document I have to translate if I need to or is that a no-no?
A terminology request is not controversial, IMHO, as a translator is a trait d\'union between people, who do not speak the same language: we translate the words of someone else.. and a technical question is not the statement of a point of view.
BTW, I didn\'t even think about Bugs Bunny , but it is a *that\'s all*, no more no less than what is written in that site statement.
Giuliana
[addsig]
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 00:16
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Oddie et Giuliana | Mar 26, 2003 |
Je me rends à vous - - je vous ai compris - plus un mot/maux de ma part sur ce sujet de guerre/guère linguistique désormais.
Oddie, j\'admets que la question pouvait ressembler à un slogan et qu\'il n\'y avait pas de contexte suggérant que ce soit une traduction - mais l\'absence de contexte pouvait en faire une question prêtant moins à controverse.
... See more Je me rends à vous - - je vous ai compris - plus un mot/maux de ma part sur ce sujet de guerre/guère linguistique désormais.
Oddie, j\'admets que la question pouvait ressembler à un slogan et qu\'il n\'y avait pas de contexte suggérant que ce soit une traduction - mais l\'absence de contexte pouvait en faire une question prêtant moins à controverse.
Mais quand on répond à des personnes qui demande comment on dit : \"Dieu t\'aime !\" - n\'est-ce un slogan ?
Quelqu\'un qui consulte un site ou un journal anglais et lit une banderole sur une photo au cours d\'une manif à San Francisco par exemple : do not support XXX , n\'a pas le droit de se demander comment cela se dirait en français, même s\'il n\'est pas traducteur, et ne voit pas le besoin de (ou n\'ose pas)justifier sa question. Pourquoi pas ?
Je ne savais pas (mais normal puisque tous les modérateurs appliquent les mêmes critères ) :
\"- La question a apparemment été posée et squashée dans d\'autres paires de langues en même temps.
- Le demandeur, non inscrit et inconnu sur le site, n\'a pas répondu à ma demande d\'explications.\"
J\'ai déjà squashé des questions pour cause de connerie évidente ou de répétition, mais pas après qu\'une réponse ait été donnée par un Prozien - Dans ce cas-là un message à l\'adresse du/des répondeurs éventuel(s) me paraît être indiqué - ne serait-ce que par courtoisie et dans le cas présent cela aurait pu éviter tout malentendu de ma part.
Et Oddie, d\'accord avec le reste de ce que tu dis.
Désolé pour la polémique soulevée mais cette question supprimée était aussi prétexte à une réflexion plus large sur ce sujet - car cela se reproduira sûrement.
Je tiens à remercier publiquement Giuliana pour son long courriel (envoyé aussi personnellement - mais oui ), plein de bonnes explications qui rejoignent ce que dit Oddie - et que je comprends bien :
...
\"This doesn\'t make our moderator job easy at all... we invite askers to provide more context, even privately or offer privately our help.... but if there is no feedback at all from the asker, who actually should care for an answer, to which conclusion should we come to? That that was a legitimate terminology request?
Our very last action is squashing a question or blocking a member. If we do, there is always a good reason... much of our work is not visible to non-moderators and I understand that some of our actions can be seen as extreme from outside without all background information\"
...
Merci à toutes les deux pour vos commentaires. Désolé si j\'ai compliqué votre tâche
Jean-Luc
PS : Je n\'aime pas non plus les provocateurs qui provoquent pour le plaisir de se \"faire mousser\" et de semer la zizanie - pour être correct - ni les amalgames.
Je précise que personne ne m\'a menacé d\'exclusion pour arriver à extraire de moi ce ton si \"conciliant\"
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-26 20:23]
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-26 20:24]
[ This Message was edited by: JLDSF on 2003-03-26 21:32] ▲ Collapse
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