| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Preference will be given to male applicant.. Thread poster: texjax DDS PhD
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Marc P (X) 
Local time: 01:20
German to English
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| The world of normal business | Aug 28, 2006 |
Marketing is the art of engendering discrimination.
Marc
| | | | | Without antidiscrimination laws ? | Aug 28, 2006 |
To answer Dimitri's question or rather statement. (And partly Saverio's as well)
I don't at all believe that antidiscrimination laws are indifferent to people's everyday lives.
Very often laws precede changes in the mentality of the whole society, they sort of guide or accompany these changes. They are at times the result of a minority group forcing things in a society or community. And their same presence brings upon the consciousness of a necessary and gradual change... See more To answer Dimitri's question or rather statement. (And partly Saverio's as well)
I don't at all believe that antidiscrimination laws are indifferent to people's everyday lives.
Very often laws precede changes in the mentality of the whole society, they sort of guide or accompany these changes. They are at times the result of a minority group forcing things in a society or community. And their same presence brings upon the consciousness of a necessary and gradual change.
An example. In Italy (I desume the country where Dimitri lives and where Saverio certainly does): without antidiscrimination laws, many women (not us feminists, but those women, maybe from small towns and little schooling) would have remained convinced that it was right to be beaten by their husbands day after day because the soup wasn't tasty enough or because these wonderful husbands returned home after a day of very hard and stressful work. The people surrounding these women (relatives, peers, priests, police, judges, etc.) would have continued to tell them (as in part they still do) to have patience, to keep a smile on their faces, to make an effort to cook better, etc.
Now they know that this is illegal. Just as beating anyone in the streets is illegal. And if they have the force to do it, they can avoid this violence in different ways. Before a law against intrafamily violence was enforced (thanks to Italian feminists, of course), they thought and feared that it was normal. Because the law said that it was.
That is what antidiscrimination laws are for: to give the victims of discrimination the right to fight for their rights. And slowly to change the mentality and customs in a society. ▲ Collapse
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 19:20
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Perception is everything | Aug 28, 2006 |
Dimitri Van Vossel wrote:
...but on the other hand, FORCING equal rights is just bs, if you ask me.
Perception is everything..until your perception turn out to be wrong
Francesca Pesce wrote:
Very often laws precede changes in the mentality of the whole society, they sort of guide or accompany these changes. They are at times the result of a minority group forcing things in a society or community. And their same presence brings upon the consciousness of a necessary and gradual change.
[Edited at 2006-08-28 12:33]
[Edited at 2006-08-28 12:34]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Young translators are not created equal | Aug 28, 2006 |
texjax wrote:
But I wonder... What makes a male translator more suitable for this type of assignment?
I think there are definitely ways in which a male translator can be potentially more suited to a certain type of job (and vice versa), if we're talking about young translators. A female translator who is experienced in any "male" field will do just as good as a male translator, but the same can't necessarily be said about inexperienced translators (the ones likely to work for a low rate).
If I were a client and I had a muslim religious text for translation, I would be less eager to let a newbie christian translator do the translation than a christian translator who is experienced. In such a case, if I had had a tight budget, I'd rather have a muslim translator do the translation and hope for the best. By making such a decision, I'm not suggesting that muslims make better translators than christians, or even that muslims can translate muslim related text better than christians can, but I am playing it safe in a situation where my translator may not be as experienced as I would have liked to be able to afford.
I'm all in favour of equality of the sexes, but the sexes don't differ only in terms of their genitals. The sexes see the world differently by default (all other things being equal).
Is it even legal to post a job offer in these terms?
You mean, is it legal for someone from country X where sexist discrimination is illegal to hire someone in country Y where sexist discrimination is not? That would depend on the laws of that country, I would think.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| The one law says one thing, the other another | Aug 28, 2006 |
texjax wrote:
I took the time to look at the laws in place in the country mentioned by the poster. ... "The YY recognizes the principle of elimination of discrimination in respect of employment. Section X of the Constitution of XX guarantees to every individual protection against discrimination by reason of race, place of origin, political opinions, colour, creed or sex.
Your point would be complete if it wasn't for a thing called affirmative action or reverse discrimination. If the passage quoted above was the be-all and end-all of discrimination, then affirmative action would have been illegal in that country. But it isn't.
The constitutional protection against discrimination relates only to so-called unfair discrimination. What is fair or unfair is dealt with in other laws not quoted here.
Still, Proz.com isn't a government or a public body but a private company whose owners can make additional rules about non-discrimination as they see fit.
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 19:20
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Reverse discrimination? | Aug 28, 2006 |
Chapter 1.
texjax wrote:
But I wonder... What makes a male translator more suitable for this type of assignment?
Samuel Murray wrote:
I think there are definitely ways in which a male translator can be potentially more suited to a certain type of job (and vice versa), if we're talking about young translators.
So, this is not true for 'old' translators. I do not understand..
A female translator who is experienced in any "male" field will do just as good as a male translator, but the same can't necessarily be said about inexperienced translators(the ones likely to work for a low rate).
Can you provide an example of male translation field (male sexual practices excluded?)?
texjax wrote: Is it even legal to post a job offer in these terms?
You mean, is it legal for someone from country X where sexist discrimination is illegal to hire someone in country Y where sexist discrimination is not? That would depend on the laws of that country, I would think.
No. What I meant was: is it legal to post a job offer with such 'preferred requirements' on ProZ.com, without a reasonable explanation?
Answer: NO. Fact: The posting has been temporarily removed, for this reason (see Ralf posting pag. 1)
Still, Proz.com isn't a government or a public body but a private company whose owners can make additional rules about non-discrimination as they see fit.
You mean, private companies can set their own rules? Wrong! (we could talk about this for days, somebody will tell that private companies and corporations have the power to influence goverments and laws..etc etc, but that's another story and this is not the right place to discuss it.)
Chapter 2.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Your point would be complete if it wasn't for a thing called affirmative action or reverse discrimination.
"Reverse discrimination occurs when a less-qualified candidate is hired. "Reverse discrimination" implies that women, non-white workers, aboriginal peoples and people with disabilities are being preferred over white, non-disabled, male workers. The facts show that it is members from the four designated groups who face discrimination, get less access to educational programs and training and are often denied jobs and promotions even when they do have the qualifications and experience."
http://www.equity.ubc.ca/employment/faq.htm
"Only 2 percent of employment discrimination cases pending however, are reverse discrimination cases."
http://www.allisontaylor.com/wrongful_termination/reverse_discrimination.asp
All discrimination is wrong prima facie because it violates justice; and that goes for reverse discrimination too’ ...This assumption, however, is conceptually flawed, if for no other reason, because it implicitly equates “discrimination” with any kind of “distinction”. Obviously, not every distinction is discriminatory, as the European Court of Human Rights was compelled to point out in its “Belgian Linguistics” case. If this is true, however, the question must be whether “reverse discrimination” is, in fact, discrimination in the first place.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/hellenicObservatory/pdf/2ndSymposium_papers_pdf/Panagiotis_Kapotas_paper.pdf
also interesting:
http://www.lulac.org/advocacy/issues/affirmative/aaspeech.html
http://www.umkc.edu/chancellor/ode/faq.asp
[Edited at 2006-08-28 21:04]
[Edited at 2006-08-28 21:15]
| | | | ZZZZZZ (X)
Local time: 01:20
German to English
I'm not entirely sure about what this left-wing propaganda has to do with translation ...
[Edited at 2006-08-29 00:13]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| On definitions, etc. | Aug 29, 2006 |
Chapter 2 first
That is not a definition, but a value judgement. A country or company whose policy it is to practice reverse discrimination will not have in their policy documents "preference will be given to less-qualified candidates". The key aspect of the definition of reverse discrimination is not the qualification of the candidate.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I think there are definitely ways in which a male translator can be potentially more suited to a certain type of job (and vice versa), if we're talking about young translators. So, this is not true for 'old' translators. I do not understand...
Your logic is flawed and you're being unnecessarily absolutistic. The fact that all green shapes are round does not mean all round shapes are green. Even so, I did not say all green shapes are round, but that greenish shapes are often roundish.
Can you provide an example of a male translation field (male sexual practices excluded)?
No, and I don't have to. It is not my prejudice that had caused this thread, but the job poster's. What may be a male field to me might not be a male field to you (but I suspect you agree with me on that point).
Then chapter 1
What I meant was: is it legal to post a job offer with such 'preferred requirements' on ProZ.com, without a reasonable explanation?
That would depend on the laws of the country in which Proz.com is registered. In my country, non-compliance with the rules or code of conduct of a company or organisation is not regarded as illegal unless it is also considered illegal according to the laws of the country itself. I would be very surprised if you could be arrested by the police in the country where Proz.com is registered, if your actions are found to be non-compliant to the rules of Proz.com itself... but I realise that different countries have different laws, and perhaps you know something I don't.
Still, Proz.com isn't a government or a public body but a private company whose owners can make additional rules about non-discrimination as they see fit. You mean, private companies can set their own rules? Wrong!
This is news to me; clearly things work differently where you are from. Over here in my country private companies can make their own rules which supplement the rules contained in legislation, and if employees are found have not complied with those rules, it can contribute to them getting fired. It's amazing how much you learn about other cultures on Proz.com.
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Irene N
United States
Local time: 18:20
English to Russian
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| More grease into the fire... | Aug 30, 2006 |
I was quite indifferent to this thread and felt like it was blown hugely out of proportion.
One example: once my client preferred male interpreter because most of the assignment was a social event involving lots of drinking and, as a result, exchange of dirty jokes and possible assisting in carrying the "bodies" to the hotel rooms and settling them for the night sleep:-) the client had his share of experience with those oil guys...
Another one also preferred male inter... See more I was quite indifferent to this thread and felt like it was blown hugely out of proportion.
One example: once my client preferred male interpreter because most of the assignment was a social event involving lots of drinking and, as a result, exchange of dirty jokes and possible assisting in carrying the "bodies" to the hotel rooms and settling them for the night sleep:-) the client had his share of experience with those oil guys...
Another one also preferred male interpreter for the assignment where 3 guys were supposed to travel in a pick-up truck for a week to visit the sites. So I was on a positive side. No problem, and I'm sure the oursourcer can clarify the issue easily in this case.
But the one below really makes me wonder...
3 days of whispering interpretation for 1 person. Subject - Bis/Marketing /Accounting.
***Please send your CVs (with photo) and rates to***
[Edited at 2006-08-30 01:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jörgen Slet
Estonia
Local time: 02:20
English to Estonian
+ ...
| Differences in promotion statistics and salary are not necessarily a discrimination | Aug 30, 2006 |
texjax wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Your point would be complete if it wasn't for a thing called affirmative action or reverse discrimination. "Reverse discrimination occurs when a less-qualified candidate is hired. "Reverse discrimination" implies that women, non-white workers, aboriginal peoples and people with disabilities are being preferred over white, non-disabled, male workers. The facts show that it is members from the four designated groups who face discrimination, get less access to educational programs and training and are often denied jobs and promotions even when they do have the qualifications and experience."
At least among sexes, this is not a fact, differences in professional and social success arise largely from biological differences.
First, due to being governed by only one X-chromosome, the intelligence in men is much less equally distributed. There are bound to be more geniuses and more idiots, while women tend to be more average. The effect is amplified by differences in risk behaviour. Now I don't suggest that geniuses necessarily equal to highly-paid leaders and idiots necessarily equal to "social misfits", but there are bound to be more leaders and more homeless among men. Which the statistics clearly confirm.
If we now forcefully equalize sexual representation in high positions while leaving in place the inequality among homeless, alcoholics, suicide cases etc, we are enforcing gross injustice. And this is currently going on in many countries.
There are other factors. There is a strong social pressure on men to be either successful or "losers". Men tend to choose highly paid jobs over jobs they like, while women tend to prefers jobs they like. Etc.
And then there are the clever statistical tricks to produce sensationalist salary differences that hit the headlines. A study that only compared really comparable job positions instead of "bank-director-to-school-principal" and not counting performance-related payments deflated the ~30-40% difference in my country to ~5-10%.
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 19:20
| Excuse me for insisting but... | Aug 30, 2006 |
-Jorgen- wrote: texjax wrote:
"Reverse discrimination occurs when a less-qualified candidate is hired. "Reverse discrimination" implies that women, non-white workers, aboriginal peoples and people with disabilities are being preferred over white, non-disabled, male workers. The facts show that it is members from the four designated groups who face discrimination, get less access to educational programs and training and are often denied jobs and promotions even when they do have the qualifications and experience." At least among sexes, this is not a fact, differences in professional and social success arise largely from biological differences.
You are right Jorgen, what you quoted is of course not a fact, it is a US policy described in the Civil Rights Act of 1991 (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0802658.html).
So, no matter what we think about sexual differences, and whether they are a fact or not (we could spend years discussing this issue), I believe that the point that texjax was (is) trying to make when she started this thread is that companies doing business in the US should abide by US rules such as the act against discrimination based on gender and, where applicable, affirmative action policies (regardless of how contradictory we might believe they are).
The point was to know if a the outsourcer could advertise a job in the way it did, and it appears that something must have been out of order, since the posting was removed shortly after the beginning of this thread.
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 19:20
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
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Atenea Acevedo (X)
Local time: 17:20
English to Spanish
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| Thanks, texjax | Sep 2, 2006 |
For a very interesting link and other for the "left wing propaganda".
Cheers,
Atenea
| | | | Jörgen Slet
Estonia
Local time: 02:20
English to Estonian
+ ...
| of grease and fire | Sep 2, 2006 |
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote: You are right Jorgen, what you quoted is of course not a fact, it is a US policy described in the Civil Rights Act of 1991 ( http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0802658.html). So, no matter what we think about sexual differences, and whether they are a fact or not (we could spend years discussing this issue), I believe that the point that texjax was (is) trying to make when she started this thread is that companies doing business in the US should abide by US rules such as the act against discrimination based on gender and, where applicable, affirmative action policies (regardless of how contradictory we might believe they are).
So since men are the underrepresented sex in the translation industry, does the affirmative action policy mean that male applicants should be preferred (as I understand things should be in the EU) or is the affirmative action hardwired to prefer women ?
I myself prefer Danbrownian style.
But to each his own
| | | | | The more things change. . . | Oct 9, 2006 |
Claudia Krysztofiak wrote:
But then again, I have heard that there are people out there, who behave strangely and and do not act with common sense. Maybe this is one of those rare examples.
I have run into this phenomenon in the past also. I thought I was the only one who noticed!
In Mexico, it is common in the "help wanted" section of the newpaper to divide the offers of employment into male and female sections. As a progressive Californian with solid Hippy Credentials, I was appalled when I first saw it.
I haven't grown accustomed to it.
The factories along the U.S.-Mexico border typically only hire women for their assembly lines. The logic used before was that women have smaller hands, blah blah blah. Several years back, a directive from one of the huge multinational companies surfaced. It explained to the HR directors at their various plants that women should be hired because they were less likely to unionize. It stated that many are single mothers and are less likely to risk loosing their jobs in pursuit of better working conditions/salary, and less likely to complain/sue if their rights were violated.
Life in the 21st century (or is it still the 19th?).
Saludos!
Jason
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