This site uses cookies.
Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site,
while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used.
For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
De la măsura 82 asistăm la expunerea unui ritm eterogen, oarecum „şchiop”, de 5, încadrat în măsuri alternative pe tiparul 2+3, ritm în interiorul căruia compozitorul „strecoară” de două ori, la piccolo, flaut şi clarinet, o formulă ritmică binară combinată (***contratimp-timp***), pe care am mai întâlnit-o în desfăşurarea anterioară
sau
Această coda nu dezminte imaginaţia combinatorie, dimpotrivă, o desăvârşeşte, astfel că măsurile alternative de 5/8 cu 3/4 şi 5/8 cu 2/4 apar în mod firesc, ele încadrează ritmuri cruzice şi anacruzice, pe ***timpi şi contratimpi***.
Explanation: I would go for this as it can be used as an official musical term, but also to describe in natural speech how music can be interpreted.
" In music that progresses regularly in 4/4 time, counted as "1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4...", the first beat of the bar (downbeat) is usually the strongest accent in the melody and the likeliest place for a chord change, the third is the next strongest: these are "on" beats. The second and fourth are weaker - the "off-beats". Subdivisions (like eighth notes) that fall between the pulse beats are even weaker and these, if used frequently in a rhythm, can also make it "off-beat".[6] "
'Syncope' and 'contratimp' are clearly explained in this book in PDF format: http://tinyurl.com/nk42ppn The text is in Romanian, but you can see examples on pages 42 and 43 (as displayed by Adobe, or 54 and 55 as marked at the bottom). 'Contratimp' apparently is when you replace the 'ictuses' with rests.
Thank you all for your kind help. The piece is Concerto no. 1 for cello and orchestra by Dmitri Shostakovich. The text I am translating is focused mainly on the rhythm/meter/tempo relationship. I have also just received the opinion of a composer with a Ph.D. in composition (from a Canadian University), and his "verdict" was : "contrapunct" = "off-beat rhythm", and "punct/contrapunct" = "on the beat/off the beat".
In a case where true counterpoint (two concurrent but divergent melodies) exists, what we would use in English to discuss the rhythmic differences would be polyrhythm. So, you would typically refer to the "primary rhythm" and "secondary rhythm". If you wanted to be REALLY creative, MAYBE rhythmic counterpoint would be understood in context.
That was exactly my point, there are two melodies, it is quite clear form the context: the flutes play, at times, a different melody (with a different rhythm) from the rest of the orchestra, and then they return to the main melody.
I think it's syncopation when the note is tied from one beat to the next (legato), while the "contratempo" employs silences or pauses or whatever you call them.
Point and counterpoint HAVE to include at least two melodies. One melody, harmony and rhythm CANNOT constitute point/counterpoint. No concurrent melodies are mentioned, therefore we can't be sure if there is point/counterpoint or not. If there is only one melody, there can be no counterpoint. Usually an orchestra would play harmony and rhythm while one section plays a melody, perhaps in multiple voices but still a single melody. Counterpoint can only exist where there are two distinct and divergent melodies. Here the author does not wish to focus on melody and does not mention a counterpoint melody, so we can conclude that it is highly unlikely these terms are correct for timp/contratimp.
Can you explain the difference between the two as you understand it? Perhaps there is something I'm not completely understanding. It sounds like a something I would like to research.
You must be right, I checked your profile :-) I think the problem might be that while you classify 'contratempo' as a type of syncopation, in our music theory "contratimp" is considered to be a separate category.
"contratimp sincopat" refers to a strong beat where a weak beat is expected. This would best be translated simply as "syncopation". "Timp-contratemp" here means alternating normal rhythm with syncopation. You could say "The alternating between syncopation and regular time that begins in measure 65..."
Am dat astfel de referinte, va rog sa le consultati (patru la numar). Am explicat deja si de ce nu este nevoie de precizarea "rhythmic", fiindca se intelege din context (fiind, totusi, un text pentru specialistii in muzica). La fel, am explicat si ca este doar o dovada de fair-play sa explicati si de ce considerati incorect ceva, dar continuati sa nu o faceti. Demonstratia mea a fost mai mult decat suficienta, pentru cine doreste sa inteleaga si e orientat in domeniu.
Răspunsul pe care l-am considerat incorect este "point/counterpoint". Ăsta este răspunsul pe care l-aţi dat cu maximum de încredere. Dacă doriţi să discutăm despre ”rhythmic counterpoint”, vă rog să ne oferiţi referinţe credibile (din domeniul MUZICII şi nu al lingvisticii, de exemplu) din care să rezulte că sensul acestui termen este echivalent cu contratimpul.
Dvs. considerati ca definitia de dictionar este suficienta, dar nu dovediti ca ati inteles cu adevarat notiunile in cauza. La asta ma refeream, si anume ca nu reusiti sa aratati de ce considerati contrapunctul ritmic a nu fi o traducere corecta, in situatia in care avem de a face, din context, tocmai cu mai multe linii melodice intr-o orchestra, unele dintre aceste linii melodice venind cu accentul mutat pe timpul slab al liniei melodice principale (aceasta este exact definitia contrapunctului ritmic).
Adami, cred că mă confundati. Explicaţiile pe care vi le-am oferit ar fi trebuit să fie suficiente, dat fiind faptul că şi din DEX v-aţi fi putut lămuri de faptul că este vorba de două noţiuni diferite. Dar poftiţi şi definiţiile dintr-un dicţionar de termeni muzicali: contrepoint - contrapunct, tehnica de compozitie constand in suprapunerea mai multor linii melodice contretemps - contratimp, procedeu ritmic constand din atacarea unui sunet pe un timp slab, urmat de o pauza pe timpul tare http://ro.scribd.com/doc/38767602/Dictionnnaire-de-termes-mu...
Adaug încă două fraze în care apare "contratimp", poate ajută:
Mişcarea cruzică a instrumentelor de coarde se transformă, în următoarele măsuri, într-un ***contratimp sincopat***, suflătorii, îmbogăţiţi numeric, intonând traseul melodico-ritmic anterior.
O expunere de tip ***timp-contratimp*** începe la măsura 65, odată cu o nouă articulare a formei, ceea ce necesită o gândire a pătrimii ca unitate de tactare.
Vă mulţumesc pentru ajutor.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
22 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): -2
point/counterpoint
Explanation: Ex. Holland's incredibly deft ostinatos, which leverage soloists and ensemble, and the proliferation of themes—there's rarely a point without a counterpoint—help define a stylistic autonomy that subsumes the borrowings. http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-11-05/music/point-counterpo...
Throughout the record, the band’s guitarists explore point/counterpoint rhythm structures, in which one often plays a constant, straightforward riff and the other augments it with angular bursts and complementary stabs. http://www.mtv.com/news/1488053/hives-album-preview-out-of-t...
The Duetto for Cello and Bass by Rossini allowed the lower register instruments to take an assertive role. Jackson on bass and Aegenheyster’s on cello played point-counterpoint with rhythm and melody. http://www.riverreporter.com/issues/03-06-19/highstrung.htm
peer agreement (net): -2
