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u.az

English translation: ditto

07:48 Apr 13, 2012
Hungarian to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting / History of Art
Hungarian term or phrase: u.az
This occurs in a list of references to previous published works on a painting, and the attribution given in each work appears in brackets after the reference. If a given attribution is the same as the previous attribution, the author has used (u.az) meaning ugyanaz, "the same" in English. I have thought of writing ibid. but I have qualms.
In some cases an attribution is "(copy after H. Bosch)" and the following one is "(u.az)" - can ibid. still be used? My understanding was that ibid. means "the same person" and the attribution here does not refer to a specific person. Other cases of open-ended attribution are "Antwerp painter" - it could be anyone, so although "the same" seems logical in English (if ungainly) I'm not sure about "ibid." in Latin.
Richard Robinson
Local time: 11:43
English translation:ditto
Explanation:
I think 'ibid(em)' ('the same place') is mainly used in footnote/endnote citations referring to an author+title, but the situation/context is different here.
'Ugyanaz' is a kind of jolly joker. It can refer to anything - people, things, places, dates etc. - just like 'ditto' as in the following art-related examples:

Collection of Valkenburg Rott. 1731, (separately) 875 flo. 781.
___________Lormier . . . 1763, (ditto) 1200 flo. 1081.

Collection of M. de la Haye . . . . . 1749.
__________ John Knight, Esq. (Mr. Phillips) 1819. . 95 gs.
__________ M. Zachary, Esq. (Ditto) . . 1828. . 150 gs.

Collection of Choiseul (the pair) . 1772. . 20,000 fs. 8001.
__________P. de Conti (ditto). . 1777. . 19,800 fs. 7921.
__________ Duruey (separately) . 1787. . 4601 fs. 1841.

A Catalogue Raisonné of the Works of the Most Eminent Dutch, Flemish, and French Painters
http://books.google.hu/books?id=gQkFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA392&lpg=PA...


Chapter 6 Architecture and other arts
List of Illustrations

117. Assyrian altar, from a bas-relief, Khorsabad (after Botta)
118. Assyrian temple, Khorsabad (ditto)

120. Assyrian temple, Nimrud (drawn by the Author from the original in the British Museum)
121. Assyrian temple, North Palace, Koyunjik (ditto)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16162/16162-h/r2c.htm

CHAP. VIII. Arabian Ornament.
31 1 Arabian Ornaments of the Ninth Century from Cairo.
32 2 Ditto Thirteenth Century ditto.
33 3 Ditto ditto ditto.

CHAP. XI. Persian Ornament.
44 1 Ornaments from Persian MSS. in the British Museum.
45 2 Ditto ditto.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts...

7. ' Sketches by G. Morland ' Title-page: Artist under tree sketching horses . . .
10. Studies of Horses, etc.
11. Ditto of Sheep, etc. ...
12. Ditto of Horses, etc.

London, 1792.
Ditto.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/ralph-richardson/georg...
Selected response from:

Ildiko Laskay
Hungary
Local time: 11:43
Grading comment
Thank you for the convincing research too.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5ibid és idem
JANOS SAMU
4ditto
Ildiko Laskay
3id. (idem)
Ildiko Santana


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


35 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
ibid és idem


Explanation:
Ibid is used when indicating the same source, but idem is used uses to cite a preceding end note that cited TWO or MORE sources. The Idem note refers to only one of the two sources cited directly before.



JANOS SAMU
United States
Local time: 02:43
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yes, I spent all that time checking the difference between idem. and ibid. and still went and typed the wrong one. My id must have got the better of me. Thanks for the clarification.

Asker: Yes, Jim, because idem is not an abbreviation, unless abbreviated to id. János: surely it would be useful to know WHICH of the previous two sources ibid. refers to, wouldn't it? Anyway, I am inclined to concur with the Chicago style book, which says the whole system is confusing and falling into disuse. (Although we still need to know how to translate historic sources, and my hunch is that usage is not as consistent as one would like). Thank you all for your input.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jim Tucker (X): just for clarity: "ibid." has a period (short for "ibidem"); "idem" does not.
1 day 3 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
ditto


Explanation:
I think 'ibid(em)' ('the same place') is mainly used in footnote/endnote citations referring to an author+title, but the situation/context is different here.
'Ugyanaz' is a kind of jolly joker. It can refer to anything - people, things, places, dates etc. - just like 'ditto' as in the following art-related examples:

Collection of Valkenburg Rott. 1731, (separately) 875 flo. 781.
___________Lormier . . . 1763, (ditto) 1200 flo. 1081.

Collection of M. de la Haye . . . . . 1749.
__________ John Knight, Esq. (Mr. Phillips) 1819. . 95 gs.
__________ M. Zachary, Esq. (Ditto) . . 1828. . 150 gs.

Collection of Choiseul (the pair) . 1772. . 20,000 fs. 8001.
__________P. de Conti (ditto). . 1777. . 19,800 fs. 7921.
__________ Duruey (separately) . 1787. . 4601 fs. 1841.

A Catalogue Raisonné of the Works of the Most Eminent Dutch, Flemish, and French Painters
http://books.google.hu/books?id=gQkFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA392&lpg=PA...


Chapter 6 Architecture and other arts
List of Illustrations

117. Assyrian altar, from a bas-relief, Khorsabad (after Botta)
118. Assyrian temple, Khorsabad (ditto)

120. Assyrian temple, Nimrud (drawn by the Author from the original in the British Museum)
121. Assyrian temple, North Palace, Koyunjik (ditto)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16162/16162-h/r2c.htm

CHAP. VIII. Arabian Ornament.
31 1 Arabian Ornaments of the Ninth Century from Cairo.
32 2 Ditto Thirteenth Century ditto.
33 3 Ditto ditto ditto.

CHAP. XI. Persian Ornament.
44 1 Ornaments from Persian MSS. in the British Museum.
45 2 Ditto ditto.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts...

7. ' Sketches by G. Morland ' Title-page: Artist under tree sketching horses . . .
10. Studies of Horses, etc.
11. Ditto of Sheep, etc. ...
12. Ditto of Horses, etc.

London, 1792.
Ditto.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/ralph-richardson/georg...


Ildiko Laskay
Hungary
Local time: 11:43
Native speaker of: Hungarian
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you for the convincing research too.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Convincing, Ildikó, thank you. I'll wait a day before selecting.

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 days 13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
u.az (ugyanaz)
id. (idem)


Explanation:
Én ugyan csak jogi fordításaim során találkoztam eddig az "u.az" rövidítéssel, de talán itt is megfelel. Ami a magyarban "ua" vagy "u.az", az angol anyagokban "id."-ként szokott szerepelni - az idem rövidítése / the Latin root of idem and identitas, which mean ''the same''. Sok perirat tartalmaz hivatkozásokat korábbi jogesetekre, ilyenkor használják az "id." rövidítést, hogy ne kelljen ugyanarra a perre minden említéskor részleteiben hivatkozni. Logikus lenne, hogy katalógusokban is így használják, de nem vagyok biztos benne (ezért közepes a magabiztosságom). :)

Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 02:43
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Notes to answerer
Asker: Fine, however while I was checking Latin abbreviations in wikipedia I noticed that the legal citation style seems to be different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibid.

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