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ideell (getragen)

English translation: intellectual (support)

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:ideell (getragen)
English translation:intellectual (support)
Entered by: British Diana

08:34 Apr 24, 2010
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Tourism & Travel / Museumsführer
German term or phrase: ideell (getragen)
I can't believe that nobody has asked for this term yet, as I'm really stuck.

The translation I have been asked to correct is about the Goethehaus in Frankfurt. In one paragraph it says:
"The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859, which purchased Goethe’s parental home in 1863, furnished it and opened it to the public. Today it also comprises the Frankfurt Goethe Museum, a graphic arts collection, a special library and a manuscript archive. The institute also issues the Jahrbuch des Freien Deutschen Hochstifts, an academic yearbook, and organizes special exhibitions and lectures. In addition, it edits the works of Brentano and Hofmannsthal with critical notes. The ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’ receives its xxxmoralxxxxxand a substantial portion of its financial support from about 2.000 society members".
The German source text : " Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell wird das FDH von rund 2.000 Mitgliedern getragen".
I am not happy with "moral support" for "ideell...getragen", perhaps you guys (!) could think of something better? Thanks a lot!
British Diana
Germany
Local time: 19:56
intellectual
Explanation:
Results 1 - 100 of about 598,000 for "intellectual and financial support": http://tinyurl.com/39aq2we
e.g.
We are so fortunate to have both the intellectual and financial support of our Fellows and benefactors...
http://www.iusafs.org/leadership/XO.asp
IPI is grateful to our generous friends and donors who provide both intellectual and financial support.
http://www.ipinst.org/about/support-ipi.html
Through intellectual and financial support, the Deloitte IFRS Consortium hopes to accelerate the integration of IFRS into school curriculums...
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/article/e87dfd00571012...

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Note added at 59 mins (2010-04-24 09:33:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

i.e. 'intellectual' in the sense of 'input of ideas' (ideell)

I have the same reservations as you about 'moral support'. Is the organisation somehow "angeschlagen"?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-04-24 10:10:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Re other suggestions:
'spiritual' - it's not a religious foundation
'ethical' - it's not a medical foundation

Key words in your own description: museum, arts, academic, library, archive, critical notes etc. These supporters certainly sound like 'intellectuals'.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day14 hrs (2010-04-25 22:44:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Diana,

As you will already know, the etiquette of exercising a critique on another answer is problematic. Nonetheless, MN’s comment on my own answer (“I think Andrew's intellectual support works too…”) plus your open-ended invitation (“It would be nice to have a few more comments or votes…”) gives me hope that the additional observations will not be considered out of place.

Current leader in terms of votes cast:
“The FDH initiative/concept/idea is backed by 2,000 members…”

1) For this to work, the client would have to be agreeable to the proposed abbreviation. Alternatively, the suggestion needs be adapted (“The Freies Deutsches Hochstift initiative/concept/idea…). Rather unwieldy to my eye/ear.

2) Quote: "The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859” I somehow doubt that they had ‘initiatives’ in 1859 – it’s a very modern term. And the Stift has certainly moved on over the last century and a half from being a ‘concept’, ‘idea’ or a ‘twinkle in somebody’s eye’ to being an established part of the city’s cultural landscape.

3) Re ‘backing’. Also a very modern ‘concept’ (‘idea’ etc). And also, I feel, a tautology: The very act of signing up as a member of an organisation presupposes ‘backing’.

4) “Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell…” Not only do these two words rhyme, they are also the same parts of speech, i.e. adverbs, and therefore have to be treated equally. They can both be translated as English adverbs (supported xyzly and … financially) or as adjectives (xyz and … financial support). The current leader effectively sidesteps the challenge of the source sentence.

I do not envy you your choice. You are under considerable moral pressure from the approbation heaped on the current leader by such heavyweights as Paul Cohen, Dr Timm and mill. Heck, three of them even have a red P!

Good luck

AJS
Selected response from:

Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:56
Grading comment
By a very narrow margin I think this is the best bet for my purposes. As I am only proof-reading I do not want to rearrange the entire sentence as Melanie's otherwise very persuasive suggestion would have entailed. I also ruled out the more "philosophical" dictionary items as being less readily understandable, even by the slightly highbrow clientele who are supposedly going to read this brochure.
Thank you, everyone for the interesting suggestions a really good discussion on an elusive term!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +8The FDH concept
Melanie Nassar
4 +2intellectual
Lancashireman
3 +2idealistic
Rolf Keiser
4conceptually
Holly Hart
3OK as it stands
Jonathan MacKerron
3ideally and to a significant part
HanulaPaul
3with words and deeds
misterherrnau
2ideational
Marga Shaw
Summary of reference entries provided
Muret-Sanders
Jonathan MacKerron
idealistically
Bernhard Sulzer

Discussion entries: 12





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
idealistic


Explanation:
aimed primarily at preserving the ideals of Goethe

Rolf Keiser
Switzerland
Local time: 19:56
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 7

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Bernhard Sulzer: see my reference.
20 hrs
  -> Thanks, Bernhard
agree  Thayenga
1 day 4 hrs
  -> Danke, Elke.
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +8
The FDH concept


Explanation:
The FDH initiative/concept/idea is backed by 2,000 members, who also provide a considerable portion of the financial support.

Just another suggestion. I think Andrew's intellectual support works too, but you have to work in that they provide a lot (but not all) of the funding.

Melanie Nassar
United States
Local time: 20:56
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  mill2: this is perfect IMO
2 hrs
  -> thanks a million, mill
agree  Michele Johnson: I was thinking "conceptual" but I think this rearrangement sounds more native.
6 hrs
  -> thank you
agree  Johanna Timm, PhD: This flows nicely ANd includes all the information - I like it!
12 hrs
  -> thank you
agree  Norbert Hermann: In the light of the discussion and uncertainty of what "ideell" actually means in this context this is by far the best solution. Obviously, the dictionaries mentioned here don’t reach all the possible meanings.
20 hrs
  -> thank you, I agree this is a tough one, considering it's a proofreading job
agree  Kay Barbara: Agree with Johanna, ticks all the boxes.
1 day 4 hrs
agree  Paul Cohen: This would be my 'ideal' solution - no pun intended.
1 day 7 hrs
agree  Rebecca Garber: With Johanna
1 day 10 hrs
neutral  Lancashireman: Sorry, Melanie. Not convinced. See additional note to my own proposal. Regards. AJS
1 day 11 hrs
agree  BrigitteHilgner: Coming back to this issue after quite a while I strongly support this solution - I think it works best.
2 days 1 hr
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
ideational


Explanation:

... might be a possibility?

ideell = ideational (Collins)

"ideational" derived from a) "to ideate" = image, conceive; form ideas (Concise Oxford Dictionary) and b) "ideation" = the power of the mind for forming ideas; the exercise of such power. (Chambers Dictionary)

"ideell" = a) nur gedacht, geistig (Duden, Rechtschreibung) und
b) "ideell" = die Idee betreffend, nur in der Vorstellung vorhanden; geistig: Eine rein deutsche Neubildung des 18./19. Jh.s. (Duden Herkunftswörterbuch

e.g.:
As bridge-builders, alumni could work out offers for every reference group, Roecken explained: for Fellowship Holders as a whole, (interchange and annual meeting, further education) or individually (advice, mentoring, assistance in emergencies), for Fellows (professional discussions, new topics, collegial advice), and for the foundation (expert dialog, new impulses, ideational support as multipliers).
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:GSdgzw_oq6kJ:www.daimler-...

The aim of the foundation is the promotion of training, education, science and research. At the same time it is a particular concern that promising young students are granted material and ideational support and encouragement.
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:wd0cMFv8wioJ:www.edmund-b...

Both gentlemen are cordially thanked for this excellent idea. Moreover, we also thank all members of the Hobby Friends for their ideational and financial support for the restoration of our valuable E.F. Walcker organ.
http://www.walcker-orgel-neuhausen-filder.de/Archiv/News_200...





Marga Shaw
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:56
Native speaker of: German
Notes to answerer
Asker: Brigitte, all three references are translations from German with different levels of proficiency, so I'm afraid they are not very convincing. In addition if I have never heard the word, in all modesty I doubt most of the readers of the leaflet will have done so, either.

Asker: So sorry, Marga, no idea why I called you Brigitte by mistake! And I forget to thank you for your contribution.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Michele Johnson: I don't think I have ever seen this word written or spoken anywhere, so despite what Collins says, it sounds worse/more non-native to me than the original "moral" here./ No doubt here about the dictionary. May just be me.
6 hrs
  -> Thanks! Perhaps you should have a look in the Oxford and The Chambers Dictionaries for "ideational", or do you consider these works as "non-native"?//Next, if "ideational" has an entry in the Oxford Dict., then it ought to be unrefutably a valid EN word?
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28 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
OK as it stands


Explanation:
"in-kind contributions" is another possible interpretation, but fits less well here than does "moral support"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 mins (2010-04-24 09:12:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a google search for ["moral and financial support" foundation] garners innumerable hits

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2010-04-24 12:15:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

We can speculate about this all day. Given the vagueness of the original, I'd ask the contractor.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2010-04-24 12:17:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

After a bit of cogitating, "non-material" might indeed be your safest bet.

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 68

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: spirtual, moral, ethical
22 mins
disagree  TonyTK: Sorry, Jonathan, but no way will "moral support" and Goethe-type foundation work in the same sentence. And that's lazy googling BTW. It's the foundations that themselves provide "moral and financial support".
1 hr
  -> indeed, these institutions are providing support to the Goethe Haus
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
conceptually


Explanation:
This is the first thing that came to mind when I read the sentence in German. Also if you check out leo.org, one meaning for ideell has to do with 'idea' and there are some forum entries that list 'conceptually' as a solution for specific instances.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2010-04-24 18:48:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

conceptually - ie: with ideas or in the conception of the organization

Example sentence(s):
  • "der Gründer unterstützt das Unternehmen weiterhin finanziell und ideell" -> supporting both financially and conceptually

    Reference: http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=209...
Holly Hart
United States
Local time: 12:56
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Heart, for drawing our attention to the leo forum entries. So even if there was a gap in KudoZ until my query, this word HAS posed problems to translators! Your solution sounds plausible, it gets me back to the question of the intellectual level of the potential readers of my text and whether this would be readily understood by them.

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52 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
ideell
intellectual


Explanation:
Results 1 - 100 of about 598,000 for "intellectual and financial support": http://tinyurl.com/39aq2we
e.g.
We are so fortunate to have both the intellectual and financial support of our Fellows and benefactors...
http://www.iusafs.org/leadership/XO.asp
IPI is grateful to our generous friends and donors who provide both intellectual and financial support.
http://www.ipinst.org/about/support-ipi.html
Through intellectual and financial support, the Deloitte IFRS Consortium hopes to accelerate the integration of IFRS into school curriculums...
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/article/e87dfd00571012...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 59 mins (2010-04-24 09:33:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

i.e. 'intellectual' in the sense of 'input of ideas' (ideell)

I have the same reservations as you about 'moral support'. Is the organisation somehow "angeschlagen"?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-04-24 10:10:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Re other suggestions:
'spiritual' - it's not a religious foundation
'ethical' - it's not a medical foundation

Key words in your own description: museum, arts, academic, library, archive, critical notes etc. These supporters certainly sound like 'intellectuals'.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day14 hrs (2010-04-25 22:44:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Diana,

As you will already know, the etiquette of exercising a critique on another answer is problematic. Nonetheless, MN’s comment on my own answer (“I think Andrew's intellectual support works too…”) plus your open-ended invitation (“It would be nice to have a few more comments or votes…”) gives me hope that the additional observations will not be considered out of place.

Current leader in terms of votes cast:
“The FDH initiative/concept/idea is backed by 2,000 members…”

1) For this to work, the client would have to be agreeable to the proposed abbreviation. Alternatively, the suggestion needs be adapted (“The Freies Deutsches Hochstift initiative/concept/idea…). Rather unwieldy to my eye/ear.

2) Quote: "The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859” I somehow doubt that they had ‘initiatives’ in 1859 – it’s a very modern term. And the Stift has certainly moved on over the last century and a half from being a ‘concept’, ‘idea’ or a ‘twinkle in somebody’s eye’ to being an established part of the city’s cultural landscape.

3) Re ‘backing’. Also a very modern ‘concept’ (‘idea’ etc). And also, I feel, a tautology: The very act of signing up as a member of an organisation presupposes ‘backing’.

4) “Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell…” Not only do these two words rhyme, they are also the same parts of speech, i.e. adverbs, and therefore have to be treated equally. They can both be translated as English adverbs (supported xyzly and … financially) or as adjectives (xyz and … financial support). The current leader effectively sidesteps the challenge of the source sentence.

I do not envy you your choice. You are under considerable moral pressure from the approbation heaped on the current leader by such heavyweights as Paul Cohen, Dr Timm and mill. Heck, three of them even have a red P!

Good luck

AJS

Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:56
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 134
Grading comment
By a very narrow margin I think this is the best bet for my purposes. As I am only proof-reading I do not want to rearrange the entire sentence as Melanie's otherwise very persuasive suggestion would have entailed. I also ruled out the more "philosophical" dictionary items as being less readily understandable, even by the slightly highbrow clientele who are supposedly going to read this brochure.
Thank you, everyone for the interesting suggestions a really good discussion on an elusive term!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  TonyTK: A voice of reason, at last. Hence my "agree", even though I'm not too keen on "intellectual". What if the most of the members are thick? // Indeed. Like Jonny (sic) Wilkinson once said: "Der Menschheit ganzer Jammer faßt mich an."
56 mins
  -> Thanks, TTK. I don't think we are talking about a bunch of rugby supporters here.
agree  Michael Wetzel: Slight change to sentence?: "The ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’ receives intellectual and a substantial portion of its financial support from its approximately 2.000 members." Better yet?: the verb "depends on" (set phrase and closer to "getragen von")
10 hrs
  -> Thanks, Michael. A later initiative/concept/idea has since received more backing.
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1 day 20 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
ideally and to a significant part


Explanation:
...also COST RELATED, is the FDH supported by around 2000 members...

HanulaPaul
Canada
Local time: 13:56
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1 day 21 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
with words and deeds


Explanation:
a highfalutin way of saying "mit Rat und Tat helfen" IMHO

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day22 hrs (2010-04-26 06:35:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or "in word and deed"

misterherrnau
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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Reference comments


13 mins peer agreement (net): +3
Reference: Muret-Sanders

Reference information:
ideell Adj.
1. (Ggs. materiell) non-material(istic), idealistic; Werte: auch spiritual; (ethisch) moral, ethical; ideeller Wert eines Gegenstandes: sentimental value
2. der ideelle Gehalt eines Buches etc. the ideas in (oder behind) a book etc.
3. PHILOS., MATH. ideal
© Langenscheidt KG, Berlin und München

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 68
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thank you, Jonathan; now can any of these be used in my context: I think we can rule out spiritual, ethical, ideal and sentimental for a start. Non-material, moral and the ideas behind are at least worth considering


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Norbert Hermann: non-material
28 mins
  -> thx, probably the best option here
agree  Michele Johnson: Non-material is "ideal" IMO
9 hrs
agree  TonyTK: Yes, "non-material" is probably the best answer on the board.
1 day 23 hrs
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22 hrs
Reference: idealistically

Reference information:
An honorable or worthy principle or aim, task, cause - an ideal or ideals is/are what the members believe in, represent, and support (IMO).
Ideell is a very nice German word and the English version should be of comparable quality.

Besides, "ideell" appears again on the website, see below.

I would also keep it positive and lofty, so negative meanings as in non-material won't do IMO.
Moral support would sound as if there is hardly any left for Goethe.

Intellectual does go in the direction of ideell, but I believe ideals/idealistic is a nicer solution.

I suggest idealistic support/idealistically supported/
carrying on the spirit/ the ideals/ideal values of the Goethehaus.

I hope these ideas might help for the second instance of the word in your text.

The words idea/concept as suggested above don't work for me.
They're not suggesting what that is and they are not as art-related and nice-sounding as "ideell" or the English "ideal(s)".
We are talking about Goethe!

http://www.goethehaus-frankfurt.de/freies-deutsches-hochstif...
Freies Deutsches Hochstift

Das Freie Deutsche Hochstift ist eines der ältesten Kulturinstitute Deutschlands und eine gemeinnützige Forschungsinstitution.

Zu ihm gehört als ideeller und anschaulicher Mittelpunkt Goethes Elternhaus am Großen Hirschgraben in Frankfurt am Main.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freies_Deutsches_Hochstift
Die politischen ideale der Revolution sollten in der Institution eine geistig-kulturelle Heimstatt finden. Der Verein stand von Beginn an jedem offen. Durch die Gründung der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität in Frankfurt am Main verlagerte sich der Schwerpunkt der Vereinstätigkeit von einer Akademie und einer Art Volkshochschule zu einer Museums-, Sammlungs- und Forschungstätigkeit. Das Hochstift betreibt heute ein Dichterarchiv, eine Graphische Sammlung und eine Forschungsbibliothek. Der Schwerpunkt der aktuellen Forschungsarbeit wird von zwei historisch-kritischen Editionen gebildet.

Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Works in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 20
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thank you, Bernhard, for this very comprehensive reference and I definitely agree that the term should have positive, cultured connotations. I am assuming that the visitors who read my leaflet will be quite well-educated and not Andrew's proverbial rugby supporters. However, see my discussion entry...

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