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so......wie

English translation: as ... as

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:so......wie
English translation:as ... as
Entered by: David Moore (X)

07:52 Aug 13, 2007
German to English translations [PRO]
Linguistics / Grammar
German term or phrase: so......wie
For context, the sentence within which it occurs deals with the late Middle Ages and runs:
"Keine andere Stadt der Erde hat so zum Evangelium gestanden wie Magdeburg."

It introduces the web-site below:

http://www.ulrichskirche.de/

and the question is this: is it permissible/possible for this to be translated correctly as "so.....as", or must one be bound by the rules of grammar (which my wife insists would mean) as "as.....as"?

I feel that to use "so....as" lends a little extra emphasis to the statement, and would be most interested to hear any opinions from Proz'ers, especially ENS, but NOT restricted to Brits.

The sentence in question currently reads:
"No other City in the world remained so faithful to the message of the Gospels as Magdeburg."

MTIA
David Moore (X)
Local time: 00:14
as ... as
Explanation:
Sentence is ok, but would make the following changes (city doesn't need to be capitalized and the correct form would be as...as). To add emphasis you could add "nearly as faithful", or some other flavoring word. But so... as just sounds gramatically incorrect.

No other city in the world remained as faithful to the message of the Gospels as Magdeburg.
Selected response from:

SpreeSarah
United States
Local time: 18:14
Grading comment
Selection is often the most diffecult task, as it was here. Thanks, Sarah, for your reminder that I had slipped in capitalising "city" here - that really was silly!
Though I was still tempted to use "so...as", I felt it better to follow modern thinking (and teaching!!).
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +5as strongly devoted to ... as
BrigitteHilgner
5 +3as ... as
SpreeSarah
4"so...as" is perfectly fine, particularly in a negative sentence - (though increasingly uncommon)
Jim Tucker (X)
3more faithful than was
Susan Zimmer
3as ... as + other options
Francis Lee (X)
3comment
Ken Cox


Discussion entries: 11





  

Answers


4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
as strongly devoted to ... as


Explanation:
That is my spontaneous idea.

BrigitteHilgner
Austria
Local time: 00:14
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  SpreeSarah: also a good option, particluarly because of the added emphasis
2 mins
  -> Thank you, Sarah.
agree  Ulrike Kraemer: Auf jeden Fall "as ... as". Guten Morgen nach Wien und eine schöne Woche! :-) // Ja, so was ist immer undankbar. Ich habe auch einen Kunden, der zehn E-Mails lang über einen Begriff diskutieren kann ... :-(
7 mins
  -> Danke schön, Ulrike, die guten Wünsche kann ich brauchen! Habe mich gerade aufgeregt, weil ein Kunde, für den ich eine katastrophale Übersetzung verbesserte, mir nun die Fehlerliste schickt und fragt, was ich zu diesen Fehlern sage ... Schönen Tag noch!
agree  Lori Dendy-Molz: Chin up, Brigitte! Remember: the customer is always ... um, how does that go again? :-)//Tja, I've heard millionaires can sometimes be nitwits, too ...
26 mins
  -> Thank you, Lori - particularly for your comment, that really made me laugh! Sometimes I think I made a mistake becoming a translator - I should have tried to marry a millionaire ... ;-)
agree  Hilary Davies Shelby: definitely as...as - hope your week gets better!
3 hrs
  -> Thank you, Hilary. I've just been to town to buy myself a couple of CDs - I feel much better now! :-)
agree  Rebecca Garber: Definitely as...as. Since it happened on a Mon, there is every likelihood that the week can only improve!
10 hrs
  -> Thank you, Rebecca. I am really touched by the concern you all show. As mentioned to Hilary, I decided to shrug the stupid event off and bought myself a couple of nice CDs and listened to them in the evening - so I feel much better now. :-)
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
as ... as


Explanation:
Sentence is ok, but would make the following changes (city doesn't need to be capitalized and the correct form would be as...as). To add emphasis you could add "nearly as faithful", or some other flavoring word. But so... as just sounds gramatically incorrect.

No other city in the world remained as faithful to the message of the Gospels as Magdeburg.

SpreeSarah
United States
Local time: 18:14
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Selection is often the most diffecult task, as it was here. Thanks, Sarah, for your reminder that I had slipped in capitalising "city" here - that really was silly!
Though I was still tempted to use "so...as", I felt it better to follow modern thinking (and teaching!!).

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Armorel Young: I agree - and I don't see any need for capitalizing gospels either (it is only Bible that is normally capitalized)
47 mins
agree  Hilary Davies Shelby
3 hrs
agree  monbuckland
4 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
more faithful than was


Explanation:
Here's another way to look at the sentence:

There was no other city in the world more faithful to the gospel than was Magdeburg.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-08-13 09:48:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

No other city in the world followed the gospels as faithfully as did Magdeburg.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-08-13 10:01:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

No other city followed the gospels more faithfully than did Magdeburg.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-08-13 11:34:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"It is presumed that no member locally of the Methodist church has ever been more faithful than was Mrs. Keeny..."
skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/chautauq/library/obitsk.html

"Few men have been more faithful than was he..."
History of the City of Toledo
www.heritagepursuit.com/Lucas/LucasReligiousChapll-584.htm


Susan Zimmer
United States
Local time: 18:14
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 3

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Hilary Davies Shelby: Hi Susie! If you're going to use this formulation, i'd omit the second verb (writing "than Magdeburg" or "as Magdeburg"). The second verb just sounds wrong to me.//Sorry Susie, perhaps I could have chosen a better word! Old-fashioned, maybe.
1 hr
  -> it's not wrong, it's just older style
neutral  SpreeSarah: Also have a problem with the second verb as it sounds unnatural.
1 hr
  -> and, of course, you can leave it out
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
as ... as + other options


Explanation:
In principle I'd say "as ... as" is correct usage, and I'm sketpical re. Ken's comment on "so ... as" being common parlance in the US.

If you're looking for greater stress, then you might want to consider e.g. "unrivalled", "unparalleled" or "unique heritage in terms of ..."

But the REAL question here is: what is the author actually trying to say here??
Perhaps it's more about Magdeburg's significance re. the Reformation?

Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 00:14
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
"so...as" is perfectly fine, particularly in a negative sentence - (though increasingly uncommon)


Explanation:
...and has been so from Shakespeare to US English, though it is undoubtedly less common today.

I tend to agree with you that it is somehow stronger with "so" than with "as" -- and of course if context makes it clear that you are talking about Magdeburg, you can simply leave out the last two words, to even more emphatic effect.

There used to be a schoolmarmish rule about when to use "so....as", though I don't think you need to be so inflexible.

I just found a version of it:

A traditional usage rule draws a distinction between comparisons using as . . . as and comparisons using so . . . as. The rule states the so . . . as construction is required in negative sentences (as in Shakespeare's “'tis not so deep as a well”), in questions (as in Is it so bad as she says?), and in certain if- clauses (as in If it is so bad as you say, you ought to leave). But this so . . . as construction is becoming increasingly rare in American English, and the use of as . . . as is now entirely acceptable in all contexts.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/A0450100.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2007-08-13 12:20:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In fact, Will S. had it both ways!:

THOU art as tyrannous, so as thou art,
As those whose beauties proudly make them cruel

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2007-08-13 12:50:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

(of course your sentence *is* a negative sentence of a sort, which is why the "so....as" sounds possible)

Jim Tucker (X)
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
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13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
comment


Explanation:
In response to Jim's answer, I agree that 'so... as' can be (and is) used in negative expressions, though I can't recall ever being taught the rule (or maybe I just forgot). If I it start thinking about examples, I come to the conclusoin that the 'so' construction is more appropriate in informal usage and that the negative term should be relatively close to 'so'.

Some examples where IMO both forms are acceptable are:
'It's not so long as you said' or'It's not as long as you said'
'It wasn't so hard a I thought' or 'It wasn't as hard as I thought'.
'He ain't nearly so tough as he says' or 'He isn't nearly as tough as he says [he is]'.

In musing on these and other examples, I have the feeling that the form with 'so' gives a slight emphasis to the negation and would more likely be used (other considerations aside) when the intention is to contradict a previous assertion or expectation.

Ken Cox
Local time: 00:14
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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