Ausforschungsbeweis

English translation: fishing expedition

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Ausforschungsbeweis
English translation:fishing expedition
Entered by: EMatt

15:42 Apr 12, 2003
German to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
German term or phrase: Ausforschungsbeweis
Bei dem anglo-amerikanischen pretrial discovery Verfahren spricht man vom Ausforschungsbeweis.
EMatt
Local time: 14:06
wide-ranging discovery/fishing expedition
Explanation:
As you know, I'm not a legal expert, but I think this might apply. Pretrial discovery is translated as vorprozessuale Beweisermittlungsverfahren.

Dem nach deutschem Recht unzulässigen Ausforschungsbeweis sind damit "Tür und Tor geöffnet“. Folglich startet ein amerikanischer Kläger jeden Prozeß erst einmal mit sogenannten "fishing expeditions“, in dem die beklagte Partei mit Unmengen von Ausforschungsverlangen überzogen wird.

http://www.legamedia.net/legapractice/wessing/2001/01-08/010...

Die Schose laesst sich ueberhaupt nur vor dem Hintergrund des U.S.-
amerikanischen "Discovery"-Verfahrens verstehen: In der Anfangsphase
einer Zivilklage duerfen sich die Parteien in weiten Grenzen
gegenseitig in die Akten sehen - ein sog. "Ausforschungsbeweis", den
es nach DE-Recht *nicht* gibt.

http://www.fitug.de/debate/9910/msg00255.html


Allgemein gehaltene Ersuchen, die von der
Gegenpartei fordern, anzugeben, welche Unterlagen sie im Besitz hat, um Tatsachen –und Beweismaterial in die Hände zu bekommen, um überhaupt das Klagefundament substanzieren und beweisen zu können (sog. Ausforschungsbeweis fishing expedition) wurden zurückgewiesen. Ausländische Rechtshilfebegehren betreffend Discovery" wurden m.a.W. wie schweizerische Akteneditionsbegehren behandelt.

http://www.ofj.admin.ch/themen/rechtshilfe/wegl-ziv-d.pdf


"Pre-Trial-Discovery: Während in Deutschland der Ausforschungsbeweis verboten ist, geht das US-amerikanische Recht davon aus, daß beide Parteien im Hinblick auf die Kenntnis prozeßrelevanter Tatsachen gleichgestellt sein sollen. Über das Pre-Trial-Discovery kann etwa die Vorlage sämtlicher Dokumente verlangt werden, die im weitesten Sinne mit dem Rechtsstreit zusammenhängen könnten (neben Verträgen und rechtsgeschäftlichen Erklärungen auch Kalender, Telefonnotizen, Vorstandsprotokolle, technische Unterlagen usw.) Das Pre-Trial-Discovery ist langwierig und kostspielig und wird nicht selten auch eingesetzt, um Geschäftsgeheimnisse des Prozeßgegners in Erfahrung zu bringen.


http://www.bdphg.de/informationen/mandantenrundbriefe/997n2....
Selected response from:

Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 12:06
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +1evidence gathered [or adduced] through document production
Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.
5 +1purely exploratory offer of unspecified facts
Fabian Stoffers
4 +1exploratory offer of (unspecified) facts
verbis
3 +2interrogatories
Margaret Marks
3 +1wide-ranging discovery/fishing expedition
Kim Metzger
4purely exploratory questioning
Margaret Marks
3discovery
Jonathan MacKerron
3More information
Kim Metzger


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


50 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
wide-ranging discovery/fishing expedition


Explanation:
As you know, I'm not a legal expert, but I think this might apply. Pretrial discovery is translated as vorprozessuale Beweisermittlungsverfahren.

Dem nach deutschem Recht unzulässigen Ausforschungsbeweis sind damit "Tür und Tor geöffnet“. Folglich startet ein amerikanischer Kläger jeden Prozeß erst einmal mit sogenannten "fishing expeditions“, in dem die beklagte Partei mit Unmengen von Ausforschungsverlangen überzogen wird.

http://www.legamedia.net/legapractice/wessing/2001/01-08/010...

Die Schose laesst sich ueberhaupt nur vor dem Hintergrund des U.S.-
amerikanischen "Discovery"-Verfahrens verstehen: In der Anfangsphase
einer Zivilklage duerfen sich die Parteien in weiten Grenzen
gegenseitig in die Akten sehen - ein sog. "Ausforschungsbeweis", den
es nach DE-Recht *nicht* gibt.

http://www.fitug.de/debate/9910/msg00255.html


Allgemein gehaltene Ersuchen, die von der
Gegenpartei fordern, anzugeben, welche Unterlagen sie im Besitz hat, um Tatsachen –und Beweismaterial in die Hände zu bekommen, um überhaupt das Klagefundament substanzieren und beweisen zu können (sog. Ausforschungsbeweis fishing expedition) wurden zurückgewiesen. Ausländische Rechtshilfebegehren betreffend Discovery" wurden m.a.W. wie schweizerische Akteneditionsbegehren behandelt.

http://www.ofj.admin.ch/themen/rechtshilfe/wegl-ziv-d.pdf


"Pre-Trial-Discovery: Während in Deutschland der Ausforschungsbeweis verboten ist, geht das US-amerikanische Recht davon aus, daß beide Parteien im Hinblick auf die Kenntnis prozeßrelevanter Tatsachen gleichgestellt sein sollen. Über das Pre-Trial-Discovery kann etwa die Vorlage sämtlicher Dokumente verlangt werden, die im weitesten Sinne mit dem Rechtsstreit zusammenhängen könnten (neben Verträgen und rechtsgeschäftlichen Erklärungen auch Kalender, Telefonnotizen, Vorstandsprotokolle, technische Unterlagen usw.) Das Pre-Trial-Discovery ist langwierig und kostspielig und wird nicht selten auch eingesetzt, um Geschäftsgeheimnisse des Prozeßgegners in Erfahrung zu bringen.


http://www.bdphg.de/informationen/mandantenrundbriefe/997n2....



    Reference: http://www.legamedia.net/legapractice/wessing/2001/01-08/010...
    Reference: http://www.ofj.admin.ch/themen/rechtshilfe/wegl-ziv-d.pdf
Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 12:06
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1244

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.: Hyperbole. See below.
1 hr
  -> Hyperbole is singularly unhelpful as linguistic criticism.

agree  Сергей Лузан: with "Pre-Trial-Discovery..." Deutsch-Russisches Juristisches Wörterbuch (mit etwa 45.000 Fachbegriffen), ISBN 5-200-00240-0
1 hr
  -> I don't think I've got it right.
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55 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
exploratory offer of (unspecified) facts


Explanation:
http://www.cisg.law.pace.edu/cisg/biblio/karollus.html
just another suggestion

verbis
Local time: 20:06
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Fabian Stoffers: Sorry, I did not see you were first!
5 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
evidence gathered [or adduced] through document production


Explanation:
These German sources cited by K Metzger are hyperbolic in the extreme.
The term, "fishing expedition," is used only as a cautionary or a plaint. It is precisely that the document exchange NOT become an overly intrusive process that the term is evoked. Thus, it may *not* serve as a euphemistic translation of "Ausforschungsbeweis."
Document production demands must be limited to evidence which is *material and relevant* to the issues in controversy.
No lawyer worth his salt sets out to abuse the process by harassing the other side or to find out whether he's got a case through a fishing expedition.
Counsel has ample opportunity to complain of document requests which are too broad, and in an appropriate case, sanctions are awarded against the overzealous lawyer.
A great deal of preparation goes into the pre-trial phase of U.S. litigation in order to: 1) promote settlement and thus *avoid* trial and the waste of judicial resources; 2) narrow the issues for trial (again, judicial resource preservation); 3) avoid surprise at trial (TV court room dramas notwithstanding); 4) arrive at the truth in the matter at hand. The desired result is an orderly and thorough process of truth-finding on what's called "law day."
Most American lawyers will joke about the arduousness of the discovery (or disclosure) process (which includes extrajudicial pre-trial examinations of witnesses under oath), but most are firmly convinced of its ultimate efficiency at achieving its stated goals.


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Note added at 2003-04-13 05:29:42 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is the apparent German ZPO counterpart to voluntary party discovery and motions for court-ordered discovery (Beweisanträge). Thus, the courts delegate to lawyers, as officers of the court, authority to assemble *investigative evidence\"--which authority they themselves possess--albeit under their continued supervision, and to do so through discovery devices such as EBT\'s, interrogatories (yes, also, but sparingly used), document production requests, even notices to admit (facts), all with a view to promoting settlement, conserving judicial resources, and narrowing the issues for trial.
Section 494a ZPO contains a wrinkle which, if I may say, harbors far greater potential for harassment and abuse than discovery practice under the U.S. system, inasmuch as discovery can be had *before the action is filed(!)* and issue is joined. The court then gives the original applicant a deadline to bring his action, failing which sanctions can be ordered.

http://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/485.html
Zivilprozeßordnung

Titel 12 - Selbständiges Beweisverfahren (§§ 485 - 494a) [[Party Discovery]]

Section 487 is significant as the counterpart to the requirement mentioned above that the *SCOPE* of the inquiry (whether relative to document production or pre-trial examination of witnesses) not be overbroad and that the application for a discovery order be narrowed by considerations of *materiality* and *relevance*. Thus:

§ 487
Inhalt des Antrages

Der Antrag muß enthalten:

1.die Bezeichnung des Gegners;
**2.die Bezeichnung der Tatsachen, über die Beweis erhoben werden soll;
3.die Benennung der Zeugen oder die Bezeichnung der übrigen nach § 485 zulässigen Beweismittel;
**4.die Glaubhaftmachung der Tatsachen, die die Zulässigkeit des selbständigen Beweisverfahrens und die Zuständigkeit des Gerichts begründen sollen.

Quote from case authority:
Die Beschwerde rügt zu Recht, dass das Berufungsgericht verfahrensfehlerhaft die Erhebung von Sachverständigenbeweis [zur Frage dessen Gesundheit] abgelehnt hat...Der Senat versteht die Ausführungen des Verwaltungsgerichtshofs so, dass dieser in dem Beweisbegehren des Klägers zwar einen an sich erheblichen, aber deshalb *unzulässigen Beweisermittlungs- oder Ausforschungsbeweis* sieht, weil keine hinreichenden tatsächlichen Anhaltspunkte dafür bestehen, dass dem Kläger bei einer Rückkehr in sein Heimatland mit beachtlicher Wahrscheinlichkeit Gesundheitsgefahren im Sinne des § 53 Abs. 5 Satz 1 AuslG drohen. Die Ablehnung des Beweisbegehrens und das Unterlassen weiterer eigener Sachverhaltsaufklärung mit dieser Begründung wäre indessen nur gerechtfertigt in Bezug auf Tatsachenbehauptungen, für deren Wahrheitsgehalt nicht wenigstens eine gewisse Wahrscheinlichkeit spricht.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-04-14 06:47:48 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

More on \"discovery\" vs. \"disclosure\" and K Metzger\'s conclusion that \"discovery\" involves showing the other side what you\'ve got. That\'s backwards. The Federal Rules use the term, \"disclosure,\" but in practice it still comes down to getting from the other side and keeping your own stuff close to the vest, narrowing the scope wherever feasible, and controlling the damage documents in your client\'s possession or his volunteering too much testimony can do to your case. Counsel goes through client files down to the last handwritten squiggle to assess whether the opponent is unavoidably entitled to it or they can \"keep it out.\"
Finally, if lawyers in a federal litigation write \"disclosure\" in their motion or responsive papers, informally, they say \"discovery,\" and you can be sure they think it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-04-14 06:52:47 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Since this point is obscured in K Metzger\'s first answer, let me clarify that \"discovery\" or \"disclosure\" is a party/counsel process which involves the court/judge only on rulings and similar supervision relative to that process. The court/judge does not conduct discovery. The court/judge reviews evidence and examines witnesses called, usually by the parties, to testify.

Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.
United States
Local time: 14:06
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 23

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  gangels (X): excelent. Of course, lawyer complaints about production of interrogatories being 'too broad' is part of the game and practically automatic
3 hrs
  -> Danke, Kollege.

neutral  Kim Metzger: I believe "interrogatories" is the right word here. My references point in that direction.
5 hrs
  -> I think it may be too narrow, but would like to be educated. I've added a note.

neutral  Margaret Marks: I agree with the bit in asterisks in the last quote, 'unzulässigen ...'
13 hrs
  -> Re your "spricht von" concern. It's either "bei X handelt es sich um," which is objectionable or "man spricht in U.S. Praxis von." I suspect the former. Grrrr.
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
interrogatories


Explanation:
This is part of pre-trial discovery in the USA, and it's the only word that makes sense for me as a translation of 'Ausforschungsbeweis' (the text says 'spricht man von').

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-04-12 18:45:21 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or maybe \'interrogatory evidence\'...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-04-13 07:41:06 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Continuing the note under Maureen Holm\'s opinion below: either the German is intelligently written and means \'there is a term referring to discovery that means \"Ausforschungsbeweis\"\', or it is badly written. In the latter case we can\'t do much about it. In the former, I can\'t think of anything between interrogatories (and depositions) and fishing expedition. Both are equally possible and neither is quite convincing. It can\'t be \'discovery\' because that was used at the beginning of the sentence.
I have just changed my mind....see below!

Margaret Marks
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:06
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 272
Grading comment
Beweisaufnahme includes both interrogatories and deposition

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  gangels (X): 'interrogatories' is correct.
2 hrs

agree  Kim Metzger: That's how I see it too. A set of written questions about the facts and contentions in a case submitted to an adversary as part of the discovery process.
4 hrs

neutral  Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.: Interrogatories are discovery device, but "man spricht von" has no substantive relevance here. Interrogatories are written questions propounded, usually to someone who is unavailable for an EBT.
7 hrs
  -> That's the question: either 'man spricht von' means something, or it is a waffly kind of German. Without seeing more of it, it's impossible to know. 'Man spricht von' suggests a specific term is being referred to.
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The asker has declined this answer
Comment: Beweisaufnahme includes both interrogatories and deposition

3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
discovery


Explanation:
Webster says:
"DISCOVERY: the disclosure in practice or in pretrial procedures by a party to an action or proceeding of facts or documents which will afford material evidence in determining the rights of the party asking it"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-04-12 19:03:02 (GMT)
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so perhaps
either \"discovery procedure/process\"?

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 185
Grading comment
Discovery means Beweisaufnahme. Here the reference is to a s
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The asker has declined this answer
Comment: Discovery means Beweisaufnahme. Here the reference is to a s

6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
purely exploratory offer of unspecified facts


Explanation:
This is what Germans mean when they say "Ausforschungsbeweis". In this case, however, it is quite possible that the "Ausforschungsbeweis" is already an imprecise translation of an American legal term. In this case, please disregard my proposal.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-04-12 21:55:19 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry! Verbis was first.


    Reference: http://www.cisg.law.pace.edu/cisg/wais/db/cases2/karollus890...
Fabian Stoffers
Germany
Local time: 20:06
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 28
Grading comment
It is not an offer of facts but a request for facts.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.: Is this the correct link? It's an interesting answer, but the link discusses the Conv. on the intl sale of goods.
7 hrs

agree  verbis: do not worry! it can happen! ciao
18 hrs
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The asker has declined this answer
Comment: It is not an offer of facts but a request for facts.

16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
purely exploratory questioning


Explanation:
Have just changed my mind as I discovered I was barking up the wrong tree. 'Man spricht von' refers not to U.S. usage but German usage. Ausforschungsbeweis is a term in German procedural law referring to something you aren't allowed to do in Germany.
Thus 'This is what is known in Germany as purely exploratory questioning (Ausforschungsbeweis; not permitted under German procedural law)'.
Google suggests and Romain, both the old and new, confirms:
(purely) exploratory quetioning of a witness (seeking to prove a point by improper exploratory offers of evidence or endeavouring to induce opponent to disclose a point in one's favour'
Google should provide more definitions in German.

Margaret Marks
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:06
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 272
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22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
More information


Explanation:
I’m adding this note based on some input from a colleaque who’s a lawyer. As I understand it discovery consists of depositions (oral) and interrogatories (written) but that is not Beweisaufnahme. Beweisaufnahme is the taking of evidence by the court, and discovery is when the two parties show each other what evidence they have. That is a big difference between U.S./English and German procedure. There is, however, a taking of evidence by the court in the trial in common law systems, but this discovery precedes it.

Here's Dietl on discovery:
-
discovery Entdeckung; Offenlegung, Bekanntgabe, Auskunftserteilung; (VersR) Anzeige; (Zivilprozeß) Erforschung, Ausforschung; erzwingbare Bekanntgabe von für den Rechtsstreit bedeutsamen Tatsachen und Urkunden (an die Gegenpartei vor Beginn des Prozesses); (BergR) Fund

Romain: 'Ausforschung': exploratory soundings, sounding out, seeking disclosure by adversary of facts supporting a case.
It is possible that the sentence means 'The U.S. pre-trial discovery is what we in Germany would call Ausforschungsbeweis'.


Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 12:06
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1244

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.: "Discovery" as showing the other side the evidence you've got is backwards. It's eliciting what they've got to help your case. U.S. discovery as Ausforschungsbeweis is objectionable. It's Selbstst. Beweisverfahren, ZPO 485 ff.
16 hrs

agree  Margaret Marks: §485 is usually granted by ct. only in building cases, where evidence has to be recorded before it's lost, or where expert reports may lead to settlement out of court.
21 hrs
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