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en passant par

English translation: via

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:en passant par
English translation:via

15:21 Jul 25, 2010
    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2010-07-28 15:54:11 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)


French to English translations [Non-PRO]
Art/Literary - Philosophy / Cultural essay
French term or phrase: en passant par
The article talks of the history of North Korean cinema. Here's the sentence I'm having trouble with:

"De la Libye à l'Egypte en passant par Moscou et Pékin, les étudiants de cinéma connaissent Pyongyang et le cinéma nord-coréen comme un cinéma modèle, une école encore fidèle aux dogmes du réalisme socialiste alors que l'URSS et la Chine ont, pour la première, abandonné cette esthétique dans les années 60 ; pour la seconde, largement transformé ses modèles à partir de la fin du régime maoïste dans les années 80."

Here's my question: how come, in the beginning of the sentence, the author includes Moscow and China in those places where students look up to North Korean cinema, but in the next segment it's claimed that Russia and China weren't part of those above (abandoned/changed socialist realism)?

(Not to mention the fact that I don't know what to do with "dans les annees 80" - Maoist regime ended well before that...)

Thanks everybody.
Ran Bleich
Israel
Local time: 07:41
via
Explanation:
It's perfectly standard usage, though here you probably wouldn't want to use it in its literal version:

"From Libya to Egyp, via Moscow and Peking.."

There's no contradiction: film students in those places regarde N-K cinema as a model of socialist realism, even though Russia and China have in fact moved on from that æsthetic. Sounds as if some students in those places are nostalgic for the 'good old days' of Soviet / Chinese cinema...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2010-07-26 08:20:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'by way of' is another way it is often expressed, which sometimes bridges the gap a little between the literal and the figurative usages.

We do often use it tis way in EN too, as a stylistic device, as T/W has pointed out: "From Da Vinci to Dali, via Monet and Turner" (a facetious made-up example, just to give you the idea) — here the idea is literally a chronological one, of course, as well as possibly an æsthetic one.
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 08:41
Grading comment
Thanks!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +7via
Tony M
2 +5From Libya to Egypt by way of Moscow and Beijing
MatthewLaSon
4 +2including, as well as, and
Transitwrite
5through
David Palmer
4from...to
John Detre
4from Lybia to Egypt, alongside Moscow and Bejing,...
Gabriella Bertelmann
Summary of reference entries provided
Sandra Petch

Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
"en passant" - in context, quite ambiguous...
through


Explanation:
It's an artistic form of writing the author is using to add flare to the article. By the way, 'en passant' is a chess term meaning to capture a 'passed' pawn.

David Palmer
Local time: 23:41
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
Notes to answerer
Asker: But it's the same stalemate - "through" would suggest that Russia and China are part of those admirers, whereas the next sentence claims the opposite.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  kashew: Your chess definition is inaccurate. A passed-pawn is a special term unrelated to the e.p. rule. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:d3-YJ8z...
6 hrs
  -> :) I stand corrected! I think you are referring to the option of capturing a pawn "in passing" by the opponent. We'll have to play a game and practice the manuever! :)
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
from...to


Explanation:
film students from Libya and Egypt to Moscow and Beijing...

John Detre
Canada
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Martin Cassell: literally read, the original implies an odd round trip which I think you can probably abandon without harm, but I wonder if there's an ideological progression which might be worth preserving?
15 mins
  -> Yes, hadn't thought of that. So, Libya would stand for socialism, Egypt for capitalism, and Moscow/Beijing for something in between, i.e. the transition from socialism to capitalism? Might fit with reference to USSR and China abandoning socialist realism.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +5
From Libya to Egypt by way of Moscow and Beijing


Explanation:
Hello,

It's hard to say for sure, but "en passant par" can mean "including" or "via", depending on context. We don't know if "order in space" is important or not here. Probably a ideological progression, as noted by Martin Cassell.

I hope this helps.

MatthewLaSon
Local time: 02:41
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Jack Dunwell: Yes, the background influence comes from Moscow and Beijing "by way of"includes this idea of influence
17 mins
  -> Thank you, fourth!
agree  Claire Nolan
18 mins
  -> Thank you, Clanola!
agree  Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
2 hrs
  -> Thank you, Sangro!
agree  Wendy Streitparth
2 hrs
  -> Thank you, Wendy!
agree  Sarah Puchner
11 hrs
  -> Thank you, Sarah!
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
from Lybia to Egypt, alongside Moscow and Bejing,...


Explanation:
De la Libye à l'Egypte en passant par Moscou et Pékin, les étudiants de cinéma connaissent Pyongyang

from Lybia to Egypt, alongside Moscow and Bejing, ...

hope this is helpful

Gabriella Bertelmann
Local time: 08:41
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
including, as well as, and


Explanation:
I see that everybody seems to have gone with Tony's suggestion, but I can't help thinking that this is just an elegant way of say "and" or "including" or "as well as" for a list of items/places.
In French this is a very common way of presenting a list...

Transitwrite
France
Local time: 08:41
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  ACOZ (X): You're quite right, this is a standard expression used to pad out a list.
8 hrs
  -> Thanks Acoz
agree  Tony M: Yes, of course, once you've understood the literal meaning, then this common stylistic usage becomes clear; indeed, we use exactly the same construction in EN too.
10 hrs
  -> Thanks Tony
neutral  MatthewLaSon: I would agree with you, but I'm not sure that there isn't any idea of gettig to Egypt from Libya ideologically by going through Beijing and Moscow. There are two different meanings of "en passant par": including (series) and by way of (via).
19 hrs
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18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +7
via


Explanation:
It's perfectly standard usage, though here you probably wouldn't want to use it in its literal version:

"From Libya to Egyp, via Moscow and Peking.."

There's no contradiction: film students in those places regarde N-K cinema as a model of socialist realism, even though Russia and China have in fact moved on from that æsthetic. Sounds as if some students in those places are nostalgic for the 'good old days' of Soviet / Chinese cinema...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2010-07-26 08:20:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'by way of' is another way it is often expressed, which sometimes bridges the gap a little between the literal and the figurative usages.

We do often use it tis way in EN too, as a stylistic device, as T/W has pointed out: "From Da Vinci to Dali, via Monet and Turner" (a facetious made-up example, just to give you the idea) — here the idea is literally a chronological one, of course, as well as possibly an æsthetic one.

Tony M
France
Local time: 08:41
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Thanks!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Barbara Wiebking: Yes, indeed.
0 min
  -> Thanks, kriddl!
agree  Katarina Peters
10 mins
  -> Thanks, Katarina!
agree  Martin Cassell
14 mins
  -> Thanks, Martin! I agree about the illogicality of the geography, but feel you're onto the right thing with the ideological journey
agree  Stephanie Ezrol
23 mins
  -> Thanks, Stephanie!
agree  Hermeneutica: Text is coherent imho ... // Si c'est toi qui le dit ... ;-))
26 mins
  -> Thanks, H! To me too... or perhaps I just have a warped mind... ;-)
agree  SMcG (X)
1 hr
  -> Thanks, JS!
agree  Verginia Ophof
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Verginia!
agree  Chris Hall
2 hrs
  -> Thanks, Chris!
disagree  ACOZ (X): Sorry to disagree, Tony, but this has nothing to do with travel. See Transitwrite for the correct interpretation.
14 hrs
  -> No, of course, absolutely not, literally — I thought I'd made that clear! I was simply trying to explain how to get from the literal meaning to an understanding of the usage here...
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Reference comments


16 hrs
Reference

Reference information:
Comes up a few times in the glossary including one I asked myself!

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/general_conversa...

Sandra Petch
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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