soumettre à la discussion préalable

English translation: submit (the matter/issue) for prior argument (by the parties)

10:42 Dec 1, 2020
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: soumettre à la discussion préalable
Pleadings by appellant against an arbitral award. The appellant is claiming that a point of law based on an opinion of the arbitrator that two articles were identical was raised of his own motion by the arbitrator without prior argument, and that this constitutes a breach of the principle of adversarial appraisal.

"le respect du principe de la contradiction impose donc au tribunal arbitral, notamment, de n'appliquer d'office aucun moyen de fait ou de droit sans le soumettre à la discussion préalable des parties "

"l'arbitre a « l'obligation de soumettre à la contradiction les moyens de droit qu 'il soulève »."

"Manifestement, le moyen de droit tiré de l'assimilation de l'article 3.3 à l'article 7.3(a), et de sa soumission au même régime contractuel que cet article 3.3 (a), a été relevé d'office par le Tribunal arbitral dans sa sentence du 7 mai 2019 sans que le Tribunal arbitral le soumette à la discussion préalable de XXX et de YYY". (XXX and YYY are the opposing parties)

The expression discussion préalable I would translate as "prior argument". But what's the best verb therefore for soumettre? Of course, maybe the entire idea should be rephrased. I want to get this idea that the point of law is "exposed" to the rough-and-tumble of the parties' arguments. Neither "submit for" nor "subject to" really seems to work for me...
Mpoma
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:57
English translation:submit (the matter/issue) for prior argument (by the parties)
Explanation:
Methinks everyone is getting into a complete paddy over this one.
Maybe this version is clear.
Selected response from:

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:57
Grading comment
Thanks, the most helpful, but as I say not quite what I put in the end...
2 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +1allowing the parties to exchange their views
Wordwatcher
4submit [the matter/the issue/it] to the parties for argument beforehand
Eliza Hall
4without agreeing to a preliminary discussion/argument
Gloria Palubjakova
4submit (the matter/issue) for prior argument (by the parties)
AllegroTrans
3submitted for prior discussion
SafeTex
3 -2To table for preliminary discussion
ormiston


Discussion entries: 19





  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
submitted for prior discussion


Explanation:
Seems okay to me

SafeTex
France
Local time: 14:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 87
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks but hmmm. For one thing, "discussion" is a faux ami here. The meaning of the whole expression is that something has to be "tested" using an indispensable legal procedure. And it wasn't: this is also the whole basis of the appeal.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Nothing wrong with this, and I don't think "discussion" is a false friend.
6 hrs
  -> Thanks Philgoddard

disagree  Eliza Hall: In the legal context, we wouldn't say "discussion." When parties "discuss" something before a judge or arbiter, orally or in writing, it's just called "argument."
10 hrs
  -> Except that here it was not the parties (as Mpoma pointed out to you too) but the tribunal arbitral who introduced something into the proceedings. Hence it's probably not an argument as such but more a point of law

neutral  AllegroTrans: mmm...parties don't discuss matters before a court or tribunal, they submit arguments, language of the law is really needed here// points of law AND fact are contained within arguments
11 hrs
  -> Except that here it was not the parties (as Mpoma pointed out to you too) but the tribunal arbitral who introduced something into the proceedings. Hence it's probably not an argument as such but more a point of law
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22 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -2
To table for preliminary discussion


Explanation:
Also put like this?

ormiston
Local time: 14:57
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 20

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Daryo: "to table" is the jargon of parliamentary procedure // won't work in this case
2 hrs

disagree  Eliza Hall: Also, "to table" means opposite things in US vs. UK EN. https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/10/to-t...
4 hrs

neutral  AllegroTrans: "to table" implies the procedure of meetings, inappropriate for a court or tribunal
11 hrs
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
submit [the matter/the issue/it] to the parties for argument beforehand


Explanation:
In this case, discussion means argument (argument in the legal sense). The parties are supposed to have the opportunity to make their arguments on this issue before the arbiter rules on the issue.

Préalable could be translated in various ways depending on its grammatical function. Here it means before the arbiter rules, but the sentence doesn't say that. Probably the best way to say "before X event" in English without mentioning the event itself is simply "beforehand": https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/befor...

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 09:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 145
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks. But the French doesn't say "soumettre aux parties", it says "soumettre à la discussion". See my discussion entry if interested.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  SafeTex: matter and issue are too vague. The judge seems to have submitted here a point of law or perhaps a jurisprudence, not some vague "matter" or "issue" and probably not an argument either but more likely a point of law. Courts don't argue cases
8 hrs
  -> Wrong. Moyens de droit: legal issues. Moyens de fait: factual issues. https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/moyens-et-...

agree  Daryo: the issue being that the same "régime contractuel" was applied to two different clauses of the contract by the arbiter// "sans le soumettre à la discussion préalable des parties" = As far as I can see, that does amount to "soumettre aux parties"
21 hrs
  -> Yes indeed. Thanks.
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1 day 7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
without agreeing to a preliminary discussion/argument


Explanation:
sans le soumettre à la discussion préalable/without agreeing to a preliminary discussion/argument.

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Note added at 1 day 7 hrs (2020-12-02 18:08:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Without an agreement to a preliminary discussion/argument by the parties

Gloria Palubjakova
Canada
Local time: 14:57
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Eliza Hall: Where are you getting the concept of "agreeing" or an "agreement"?
2 hrs

neutral  AllegroTrans: "Agreement" is not being sought here
20 hrs
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2 days 3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
submit (the matter/issue) for prior argument (by the parties)


Explanation:
Methinks everyone is getting into a complete paddy over this one.
Maybe this version is clear.

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1355
Grading comment
Thanks, the most helpful, but as I say not quite what I put in the end...
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks... I've now returned the job and translated as "observance of the principle of adversarial appraisal therefore requires in particular that the arbitration tribunal does not apply of its own motion any de facto or de jure ground without allowing argument of it by the parties before doing so;". From my perspective you've chosen the right word "argument" but haven't agreed with me that "soumettre à" is "putting to the test", not "submitting". To me there really is a difference, and one clue for me is that the indirect object of "soumettre à" is never an entity (party, counsel) here, but always a legal process (with hopefully an outcome).

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5 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
allowing the parties to exchange their views


Explanation:
It's a simple procedure. And the adjudicators are arbitrators - not arbiters. Arbiters operate in non-legal contexts.

Wordwatcher
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 95

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Adrian MM.: Pity you didn't come in earlier with ECJ authority. It would have saved me the bother.
4 days
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