effets patrimoniaux

English translation: set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding their assets

08:25 Nov 26, 2020

French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)

French term or phrase: effets patrimoniaux

Divorce proceedings

"- dire et juger que la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux sera fixée au 3 XXX 2099, date de l'ordonnance de non conciliation, en application de l'article 262 1 du Code civil,"

This word patrimonial crops up in other sentences and expressions:

"- donner acte à Madame XXX de la proposition qu'elle a formulée en application de l'article 2"57-2 du Code civil, dans le dispositif de la présente assignation, quant au règlement des intérêts pécuniaires et patrimoniaux des époux,"

"- ordonner la liquidation et le partage des intérêts patrimoniaux des époux,"

"- L'article 267 du code civil, dans sa rédaction applicable aux assignations délivrées postérieurement au 1er janvier 2016, ne donne plus pouvoir au juge aux affaires familiales qui prononce le divorce d'ordonner la liquidation et le partage des intérêts patrimoniaux, sauf dans les conditions fixées aux articles 1361 à 1378 du code de procédure civile, si les parties justifient par tout moyen des désaccords subsistant entre elles, notamment en produisant une déclaration commune d'acceptation d'un partage judiciaire, indiquant les points de désaccord entre époux ou un projet établi par le notaire désigné sur le fondement de l'article 255 10° du code civil."

I believe that patrimonial here refers to "property" interests as opposed to "financial" (pécuniaire) interests. Several Linguee entries suggest "property consequences" or "property implications" for effets patrimoniaux. This sounds like the right sort of area of meaning, but I've never come across this idea of legalese effets = "consequences". On the other hand "property effects" sounds like the actual real estate properties themselves (cf. "personal effects"), which is clearly not the meaning: this is holding that a particular legal action will come into effect on a certain date.

Mpoma KudoZ activity Questions: 1027 (4 open) (91 closed without grading) Answers: 385 United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45

English translation:set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding their assets

Explanation:

set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on (/regarding / vis-à-vis) their assets

see the first answer, and the reasons for correcting it.

Could surely be said in many ways, but some elements must not be omitted

les effets = consequences

entre les époux = that date is relevant ONLY in the relations between the spouses NOT with third parties this request is NOT about changing the "date of the divorce" as far as third parties are concerned

patrimoniaux = that concerns "le patrimoine" of the spouses - all assets, not limited to real property (real estate, realty, land).

Selected response from:

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45

Grading comment

This is the closest to what I put: "the measures relating to real property of the spouses' divorce shall come into effect on X". I parse as "divorce entre époux", so I don't think there's anything special there. "Patrimonial" in *this* document, at least, seems to be contrasted with "pécuniaire". I concluded that this was above all about living arrangements (and related property rights).
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

property effects

Francois Boye

set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding their assets

Daryo

economic / asset-related/ consequences; economic / proprietary / interests

Adrian MM.

4 -1

division of assets

philgoddard

4 -1

set the date when the divorce will produce effects on the assets of the spouses

Daryo

4 -1

ancillary relief (matters)

AllegroTrans

3 -1

Assets

Meridy Lippoldt

4 -3

heritage effects

MassimoA

Discussion entries: 5

Daryo

United Kingdom

with an additional "little detail" ...

09:24 Nov 27, 2020

that almost past unnoticed:

"... entre les époux ..."

THAT date will be relevant ONLY "between the spouses", not regarding third parties.

see:

La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers.

https://www.droitissimo.com/famille/divorce/procedure-divorc...

Daryo

United Kingdom

That's the right idea

11:10 Nov 26, 2020

"the measures relating to property will come into effect on 3 XXX 2099... "

IOW after that date there will be longer any "joint assets".

BTW, formulating the question as "fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux" would have probably cut down the "à-peu-près" in answers ...

ph-b (X)

France

"I've never come across this idea of legalese

09:51 Nov 26, 2020

effets = "consequences"." Think: Effet d'une loi, d'un jugement. Conséquence de l'application d'une loi, d'un jugement or Prendre effet [Le suj. désigne gén. un texte à caractère jur.] Être réellement exécuté. Synon. entrer en application, en vigueur or even à cet effet (dans cette intention, pour cet usage) and à l'effet de (dans l'intention/le but de). All this from CNRTL, Le Grand Robert, etc. patrimonial refers here to the spouses' assets. I understand effets patrimoniaux as "consequences on the assets" (there must be a better way of saying this in legal English). Cf. https://www.senat.fr/lc/lc72/lc72_mono.html

Mpoma

United Kingdom

ASKER

Maybe

08:38 Nov 26, 2020

... "the measures relating to property will come into effect on 3 XXX 2099... "?

Mpoma

United Kingdom

ASKER

More context

08:34 Nov 26, 2020

I should mention that this divorce settlement does indeed involve the spouses and their children living in particular homes and alimony being paid by one to the other for "maintenance and education" of the children. One spouse is also seeking to acquire the droits locatifs for the place they're living in, which is the only case of "property interests" I've identified.

Answers

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): -3

heritage effects

Explanation:
Gli effetti di una situazione, per es. divorzio o fallimento, sul patrimonio del soggetto interessato.

MassimoA
Italy
Local time: 15:45
Native speaker of:

Italian

2 hrs confidence:

effets patrimoniaux; intérêts patrimoniaux economic / asset-related/ consequences; economic / proprietary / interests

Explanation:
It's that patrimonial weasel-word again.

capital-related would be covered by pécuniaire.

In the UK, this might be an 'ancillary relief' matter - namely one relating to custody of children & property division.

The problem with economic is that, in Anglo-Am. law, PEL: pure economic loss refers to pecuniary losses and property-related also includes money.

Again, according to the client's glossary of an English QC Barrister 'advising' in an African sovereign debt /dodging/ case: 'le patrimoine' > 'the patrimoine': a pool of assets, liabilities and interests available to the state in question.

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Note added at 4 heures (2020-11-26 12:49:21 GMT)
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Asker questions 1.& 2. real estate or land, the latter de novo includes buildings in ENG law.

I once, in my journalistic time pre-move to Brussels, wrote real property in the Euro-business mag - to squeals of protest from my native-English fellow-journalists 'angrily in Tunbridge Wells' that there was no such thing. It was called real estate. I retorted that the law 'of real property' was one of my UK uni. undergrad ENG law subjects. Reply: 'Oh, well, we don't or wouldn't know about that'.

As per Daryo in the discussion entries, I had considered property- or land-related vs. pecuniary, 'patrimonial' arguably in law vs. common parlance e.g. buying '*a* property' > encompassing personal property / personalty like chattels or Scots law: movables, rather than pecuniary assets.

liquidation et le partage: of present vested *proprietary* interests vs. perhaps contingent, forced heirship interests to either of them under any Will of their respective in-laws...

PS in the UK, either spouse ordered by the court to submit an 'affidavit of means' would have to include such contingent interests of assets 'in spe', in hope....

Example sentence(s):

IATE: fr dommage patrimonial EP en patrimonial loss
Coping strategies Divorce Economic consequences

Reference: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-patents/6287...
Reference: http://iate.europa.eu/search/standard/result/1606388337585/1

Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 359

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks... one might put "real estate property" for clarification. But you seem to think it's broader than this. I inclined that way to begin with, but then encountered "intérêts pécuniaires et patrimoniaux": I'm not clear what distinction you think they're drawing there...

Asker: or "real property" !

15 hrs confidence:

property effects

Explanation:
When a couple living in a community property state divorce, each spouse will receive an equal share of the property and will have equal liability over marital debts[i]. When a divorce occurs, community property dissolves because no spouse is contributing to the community property after separation

Francois Boye
United States
Local time: 09:45
Native speaker of:

French
PRO pts in category: 104

16 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

Assets

Explanation:
I propose a general word that covers both patrimoine immobilier and personal effects

Meridy Lippoldt
United States
Local time: 09:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 4

21 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

division of assets

Explanation:
I think this is the clearest way of saying it. You could leave out "du divorce entre les époux", as it goes without saying.

philgoddard
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 282

18 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux set the date when the divorce will produce effects on the assets of the spouses

Explanation:
here effets = "consequences", as per ph-b's discussion.

after that date any joint assets/liabilities will be divided between the ex-spouses, i.e. the divorce will "produce (its) effects"

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Note added at 18 hrs (2020-11-27 03:18:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
=
la date à laquelle le divorce produira ses effets sur le patrimoine des époux

Quand le divorce prend-il effet ?
Article mis à jour le 04/05/2012

Auteur :Charles DEZAN, notaire assistant, titulaire du diplôme d'aptitude aux fonctions de notaire, expert en droit de la famille et droit immobilier

La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers.

Les effets du divorce entre les époux

Le divorce produit ses effets lorsque le jugement est définitif, c'est-à-dire à partir du jour où il n’y a plus d’appel possible. C’est à cette date que le mariage est officiellement dissout et que les devoirs réciproques entre époux disparaissent.

Cependant, dans le cas du divorce par consentement mutuel, la convention homologuée peut fixer elle-même la date à laquelle se produisent ses effets dans les relations patrimoniales entre époux. La convention des époux peut avancer cette date. A défaut, ces effets se produisent à la date d’homologation de la convention.

Dans les autres cas de divorce, les effets patrimoniaux remontent à la date de l’ordonnance de non-conciliation. Cette rétroactivité des effets du divorce peut être poussée davantage si une séparation de fait des époux a précédé la procédure en divorce : à la demande d’un époux, le juge peut avancer les effets du divorce à la date où les époux ont cessé de cohabiter et de collaborer.
https://www.droitissimo.com/famille/divorce/procedure-divorc...

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Note added at 18 hrs (2020-11-27 03:21:12 GMT)
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here "le patrimoine" = all and any assets, not only real estate.

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Note added at 1 day 45 mins (2020-11-27 09:10:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

CORRECTION

if you take into account

"La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers."

in "la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux"

would be the date of "the patrimonial consequences of the divorce" ONLY between the spouses, not necessarily regarding third parties, so it would be:

fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
=
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on their assets
or
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding (/vis-à-vis) their assets

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2020-11-27 09:28:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on (/regarding/vis-à-vis) their assets

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of:

Serbian,

French
PRO pts in category: 196

1 day 5 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

ancillary relief (matters)

Explanation:
This is what I have always used

In English law, an application for financial relief following the presentation of a petition for divorce, nullity or judicial separation used to be described as ancillary relief. The term arose because the financial application was 'ancillary' to the petition.

Ancillary relief - Wikipedia

In English law, an application for financial relief following the presentation of a petition for divorce, nullity or judicial separation used to be described as ancillary relief. The term arose because the financial application was 'ancillary' to the petition.

Ancillary relief - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ancillary_relief
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AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 1355

1 day 23 hrs confidence:

fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux

set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding their assets

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of:

Serbian,

French
PRO pts in category: 196

Grading comment

Notes to answerer

Asker: I've just realised we're both wrong! "date de l'ordonnance de non conciliation" is in the past, not the future. I have more reason to have realised this than you. So I should have put "shall be deemed to have come into effect...".

Asker: Ah... and the fact that I disguised the date as "2099" can't have helped you!

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effets patrimoniaux

English translation: set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding their assets

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