auprès de (in a passive construction)

English translation: reporting to

16:22 May 26, 2020
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Government / Politics
French term or phrase: auprès de (in a passive construction)
Statuts of a high-level grant-awarding scientific institution.

"
...

Dans les régions où sont implantées plusieurs unités de recherche de l'institut, le directeur général peut nommer des administrateurs délégués.

Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composés de membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherche et des services communs de la région et par les autres personnels de l'institut exerçant leur activité dans la région.

Les modalités des élections, la composition et les règles de fonctionnement de ces conseils sont fixées par arrêté conjoint des ministres de tutelle."

Auprès de is always a bit of a tricky one in my experience. Here I am not quite sure whether it means something like "for (the benefit of)" or something like "besides/with" or something like "in relation to".

I believe the administrateurs délégués don't have any say in the matter. But even on that I am not entirely sure with this passive grammatical construction.
Mpoma
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:41
English translation:reporting to
Explanation:
I've looked at the original source text for this and some related material (Order of 26 September 1984, link below). It seems clear from that the conseils scientifiques consultatifs are not appointed by the administrateurs délégués. I think the sense here is more likely to be the fifth sense given by Larousse online: 'En relation avec quelqu'un, une institution : Un ambassadeur auprès d'un État étranger.' As far as I can understand it, the conseils are there to assist the administrateurs délégués by providing them with information.

So, perhaps something like 'Advisory scientific committees may be constituted, reporting to the managing directors. They shall be made up of ...'.
Selected response from:

Danielle Coleman
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:41
Grading comment
Thanks
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +6reporting to
Danielle Coleman
4 +1[...] attached to [...]
Daryo
3 +1with
Timothy Rake
3 -1There may be created out of the ranks of ... consultative scientific committees
Adrian MM.
3 -2including/consistent of/formed by
Juan Arturo Blackmore Zerón
3 -4next to / with / in the opinion of
Lisa Rosengard


Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
with


Explanation:
In my reading of this, it seems straightforward ...the syntax is reversed with the impersonal "il peut être créé..." I read it as saying "consultative scientific councils/advisory boards may be created with managing directors/delegated administrators

Timothy Rake
United States
Local time: 07:41
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yolanda Broad
12 mins
  -> Thanks Yolanda
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15 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +6
reporting to


Explanation:
I've looked at the original source text for this and some related material (Order of 26 September 1984, link below). It seems clear from that the conseils scientifiques consultatifs are not appointed by the administrateurs délégués. I think the sense here is more likely to be the fifth sense given by Larousse online: 'En relation avec quelqu'un, une institution : Un ambassadeur auprès d'un État étranger.' As far as I can understand it, the conseils are there to assist the administrateurs délégués by providing them with information.

So, perhaps something like 'Advisory scientific committees may be constituted, reporting to the managing directors. They shall be made up of ...'.


    https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do;jsessionid=CADDD09ECACDE7043BD392B84BA56AEF.tplgfr31s_1?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000681838&dateText
    https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/aupr%C3%A8s_de/6479
Danielle Coleman
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 3
Grading comment
Thanks
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for the useful links. So the sense is quite specifically "for (the benefit of)", but you go one step further to conclude that it implies a formal relationship of dependency. That may be clear from the legislation, but I'm not sure it can be deduced from the sentence alone. Which isn't to say that I won't translate it as per your suggestion!

Asker: I spoke too soon. See the fabulous definition page unearthed by ph-b: https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/aupr%C3%A8s ... "Exprime outre le lieu une idée de mission et de présence accréditée"


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yolanda Broad
9 mins

agree  ph-b (X): "assist" is the 1st thing that came to mind before I saw your answer. Not for me to discuss your choice of words, but, yes, they're created to assist and report to the administrateurs.
12 mins

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
20 mins

agree  Libby Cohen: Especially in light of the explanation provided by ph-b.
35 mins
  -> Yes, very useful definition from ph-b. Thank you.

agree  Tony M
52 mins

agree  AllegroTrans
3 hrs

neutral  Daryo: yes and no - wouldn't that imply some kind of hierarchical subordination? I don't see advisers or a consultative body "reporting" the same way as a sales manager would be "reporting" to the MD - it's not that kind of relationship.
8 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -2
including/consistent of/formed by


Explanation:
It can be created with/including/ consistent of/formed by the managing directors.

Juan Arturo Blackmore Zerón
Mexico
Local time: 09:41
Works in field
Native speaker of: Spanish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tony M: As Ph-B has pointed out, this is not the sense of 'auprès de' in this text — and even if it had been, 'consistent of' is not correct EN.
20 mins

disagree  AllegroTrans: I agree with above disagree
3 hrs
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
(CH) Il peut être créé auprès de (impersonal construction) ... des conseils scientifiques consultat
There may be created out of the ranks of ... consultative scientific committees


Explanation:
The first ProZ weblinked answer of 'from among' triggered my idea of from the ranks of.

Interestingly for grammatical purposes, it is not 'Ils peuvent être créé(s)
and the Germanic-type 'es können bei den Geschäftsführern / führinnen .... errichtet werden' construction, plus Elizabeth R's discussion entry of an ambiguity, suggests that this is not France, but Belgium, Lux or Switzerland etc.


    Reference: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/education-pedago...
Adrian MM.
Austria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Daryo: don't know German so have no idea how you extrapolated this from the text in German, but HERE it's not "out of the ranks of" - these are two different groups: managers vs scientists.
3 hrs

disagree  Tony M: As Ph-B has said, this is not the meaning of 'auprès de' in this situation.
8 hrs
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
[des conseils scientifiques consultatifs] auprès [des administrateurs délégués]
[...] attached to [...]


Explanation:
this is the same kind of relationship as between an expert (or a court interpreter) and the court using their expertise.

as in

"traducteurs interprètes assermentés auprès du tribunal XYZ"

Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs
=
It is possible to create Advisory scientific committees (?) attached to delegated directors(/managers ?)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2020-05-27 00:53:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IOW the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would be the "administrateur délégué" to which they are attached.

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 33

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M
5 hrs
  -> Thanks!

neutral  Danielle Coleman: I agree that the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would the "administrateur délégué", but I think "reporting to" captures that relationship better than "attached to". "Reporting to" does not necessarily imply a relationship of subordination.
12 hrs
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45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -4
next to / with / in the opinion of


Explanation:
The above definition is from a dictionary.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2020-05-27 07:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If 'with' is not acceptable as a translation of 'auprès de' then 'for the benefit of' could be an alternative used instead of 'with' in the above sentence.

Example sentence(s):
  • Il peut être créé auprès des administrations délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composé des membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherches et des services communes de la région et par des autres personnels et de l'instit
  • It can be created with administrations delegated from the scientific consulting councils composed of members who were elected by staff from a research unit and from communal services in the region and other members in the Institute.
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tony M: Completely rong interpretation of the source text, and not terribly meaningful nor idiomatic in EN either. This is the sort of situation where basic dictionaires somply do not suffice.
35 mins

disagree  AllegroTrans: Disparate array of suggestions, none of which are ccontextual; we can all use the dictionary
3 hrs

disagree  Daryo: It never occured to me before, but looks like dictionaries are like dynamite - handle with care / use according to the manual, or the result is not nice...
7 hrs

disagree  SafeTex: So the "panel" can be put together next to, with, and in the opinion of the delegates ?!?!?! I assume you are offering us a choice and not all three terms but how do we even know which one to chose from your selection? And they don't mean the same thing
10 hrs
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