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But what about relating energetic(al) to something such as the Energy Performance in Buildings Directive?
Can a building really be energetic?
I've come across both versions (with and without -al at the end) a number of times. However, almost all of the scientific papers, journalistic articles, etc. that contain the word seem to have been written by German, French, or other non-native speakers of English.
I don't see a reason why you shouldn't just use "energy" or "energy efficiency" as the appropriate words. It could be that someone just fell for a hoax (don't know, maybe the buildings are dancing on the table). But I could be wrong, that's why I'm asking. The directive itself (and the related documentation) doesn't include the word even once.
Examples:
"A typical 1960’s office building on the main campus of Southampton University, UK has been investigated in terms of its existing energetic performance." http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/53675/
The use of "energetic" in this sense is a classic error that arises in Romance languages, such as my main language, Spanish, where "enérgico" means energetic (full of energy) and "energético" means energy-related. I've just had a quick check and it's the same in Italian (minus the accents), which presumably explains your last reference. Ditto French: energique vs. energétique. I bet this is the reason for the examples you have found.
"Energetic" definitely cannot be used in this way in English.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2014-08-18 23:53:59 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
So I had better amend my last statement to say that "energetic" cannot be (or at least it certainly is not normally) used in this way in British English, but perhaps it can in American English.
"Energetical" is listed as an alternative form of "energetic", but it is very much less common.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 10 hrs (2014-08-19 08:11:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
This is quite intriguing. I have just searched for examples of "energetic performance of buildings". There are quite a few, but virtually all emanate from non-native speakers of English: not just French, German, Spanish and Italian, but also Portuguese, Romanian and Dutch. There is one example in the abstract of an article by an Irish author:
Presumably the author (J. Owen Lewis) wrote this. So one can't quite say that a native speaker would never use the expression. Conceivably it is the result of interference from another language.
I am prepared to state categorically that this usage is alien to British English. And indeed the relevant EU directives, 2002/91/CE and 2010/31/UE, have "energy performance" in the titles of their English versions, though some foreign writers cite them in English as "energetic performance".
However, as I've said, the American dictionary definitions seem to allow this usage, and so you find cases like the following, written in the newsletter of one of the top US universities by one Mark Schwartz, who seems to be a native speaker and "writes about energy science and technology at the Precourt Institute for Energy at Stanford University". "Energetic" is repeatedly used here to mean "energy-related": energetic cost, energetic performance, energetic performance, energetic perspective, energetically expensive: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/september/curtail-energy-...
This suggests that "energetic" can be and is used in this sense in the field in American English.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 16 hrs (2014-08-19 14:38:23 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
References for the EU directives, in case anyone wants them:
Whether CL5 or not is totally irrelevant to me. I can just say: Thank you very much for the comprehensive explanation! And thank you again for all the research into the topic. Special thanks also to Gallagy and Tony for their contributions - the additional research and the important note of caution, respectively. Please see their answers as well. Anyone who may want to look up the word will have a lot of material. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Because renewable technology research may involve chemistry and physics, I personally think that some native speakers just mixed things up here by using terminology from other fields.
They are basically trying to extend the meaning of a term by obfuscating its original intent, as in "involving a lot of energy".
For example, "energetische Sanierung" (how would you say that in French, Tony?) is also called "thermische Sanierung" but in the sense of reducing thermal losses to make the heat stay in the building. However, that does not have to mean that the building itself (the walls) are warmer: that depends on the type of insulation used.
I think they're trying to see a building as a structure that contains a lot of heat (energy) and shouldn't lose so much of it, thus it's energetic. But that's kind of a stretch for my "mental image processor".
Went through the Stanford University's department (thanks for the link, Charles) and could find no reference to "energetic" among the news items in 2012. In the other documents, I found something such as: "the gaps in our understanding of the energetic requirements of critical chemical steps for reversible electrohyrogenation" http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/TechReports2013/2.7.5_Waymouth...
When you search for companies, you'll find: "Energetic Solutions, LLC engages in the development and sale of electromagnetic pest repellants. It offers shoo!TAG, which emits electromagnetic frequencies and protects dogs and cats against fleas and ticks" http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/sn...
"Pacific Scientific Energetic Materials Company (PSEMC) is the industry leader in the design, development and production of energetic materials" http://www.psemc.com/
I agree with you about Barnhart's expression "understanding the energetic [...] requirements of [...] electrical energy resources", which sounds like techncial gobbledy-gook to me — I think what they really meant was probably more along the lines of "understanding the energy [...] requirements in terms of [...] electrical energy"
You have a point about Barnhart's statement, and the point is a general one: even world-class scientists sometimes (often?) express themselves badly. It's just that his use of "energetic", which seems to be general practice in his research unit and probably elsewhere in the US too, suggests that perhaps the usage is sufficiently well established in this particular technical field to be regarded as English and not just a calque. I'm not saying categorically that this is so, just that the possibility should be considered. Of course, that doesn't mean that one has to adopt that usage, and indeed I think it would be unwise to do so in Europe, since in so far as it is English it seems to be only American English. I can't go beyond that.
I've found another reference - this time, an Austrian one.
Energy performance of buildings ― Energy requirements for lighting
Energetische Bewertung von Gebäuden ― Energetische Anforderungen an die Beleuchtung
Performance énergétique des bâtiments ― Exigences énergétiques pour l'éclairage
This one does support your statement of a "false friend".
In reference to the ISO statement, I guess you'll have to figure out who wrote the foreword. It's the same thing here: Searching for native-speaker references is quite hard, searching for "energetic" ISO references by non-native speakers is quite easy.
I do have to point out that Barnhart's sentence sounds odd to me anyway. Just make it a bit shorter: "understanding the energetic [...] requirements of [...] electrical energy resources"
-> understanding the energy-related requirements of electrical energy resources? What's that supposed to mean? Does this even make sense? Have I missed something here?
I'd even say "electrical resources for the power grid" sounds a bit awkward as well, but I may be wrong.
Is Barnhart using the word wrongly? If I told him so, would he take any notice? I’m not being flippant; it seems to me that if he and his colleagues are using it that way, then it must be regarded, at least de facto, as correct English in this technical field. I find this disconcerting.
So I was sure that it must be wrong to talk about the "energetic performance" of buildings, or "energetic costs". But is it? I am no longer entirely sure that it’s wrong in American English. After all, Merriam-Webster says that "energetic" can mean "of or relating to energy", so why not? The Introduction to ISO 10916:2014, "Calculation of the impact of daylight utilization on the net and final energy demand for lighting", begins: "This International Standard is part of a set of standards allowing to rate the overall energetic performance of buildings". https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:10916:ed-1:v1:en
And I was powerfully struck by the Stanford University source I cited, in which Charles Barnhart, a postdoctoral fellow in the Global Climate and Energy Project at Stanford, is quoted repeatedly using "energetic" in precisely this sense. Barnhart, apparently a native speaker of English and obviously a high-powered specialist in the field, says that his research "focuses on understanding the energetic and material requirements of low-carbon electrical energy resources for the power grid". http://web.stanford.edu/~cjbarnha/Charles_Barnhart/Home.html
Since I don't translate professionally from French or German, and this is a specialised field, perhaps I should leave your examples to more expert colleagues. But the general point you raise in your last comment is very interesting. You are right that "energetic" is commonly used to mean "energetisch" or "energétique" in papers by foreign authors. One I encountered several times while browsing through examples is Silvia Brunoro, "An assessment of energetic efficiency improvement of existing building envelopes in Italy", which seems to be a calque of Italian "energetico". It seems possible that English-speaking specialists who regularly read and cite such papers might fall into the habit of using "energetic" like this themselves.
My immediate reaction to the question was that this usage is not correct English, largely because I am so familiar with "energético" and "energetic" being false friends in Spanish. Red Bull is called a “bebida energética" in Spanish, but of course it’s an energy drink in English, and "energetic drink" is an elementary error. The Spanish government has a "política energética"; the British government has an energy policy (which may or may not be energetic).
Thank you very much for your research! Maybe I should give Tony and you some background information:
The renewable energy sector is one of the most translation-resilient sectors today. While revising journalistic articles written by non-native speakers, I seriously have already had to edit quotations taken from documents, web pages, etc. because the original wording was simply incorrect or totally off mark.
This is especially true for scientific studies and the like: Scientists are not the best writers to begin with (usually) but if it's not their native language, they will be influenced by the works of other scientists (who also didn't have an editor or proofreader). One Dutch author I (otherwise) really like made the mistake of using respectively for beziehungsweise - something I was only able to get out of my system a while later. Thus, I would treat any scientific reference using the term with caution: They may have just been influenced by their "peers". Or: That's how the term found its way into American English. It wouldn't be the first time that people from the UK (in case of India, etc.) or the US (in case of Europe) adopt a meaning not previously found in English.
"Energetische Sanierung, auch thermische Sanierung, bezeichnet in der Regel die Modernisierung eines Gebäudes zur Minimierung des Energieverbrauchs für Heizung, Warmwasser und Lüftung." http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energetische_Sanierung
"Bei der energetischen Bewertung und Abnahme von Wohn- und Nichtwohngebäuden gemäß EnEV 2007/2009 gilt es für alle potentiellen Bauherren in Zukunft, folgendes zu beachten: Die DIN V 18 599 gibt wie kein anderes Verfahren zuvor eine Methode zur Bewertung der Gesamtenergieeffizienz von Gebäuden an die Hand" http://www.bauwissen-online.de/PDF/Energ_Bew_Geb.pdf
Thank you for pointing out the difference between the two languages here! I have a question for you:
Do you see the HPE below? That is otherwise written as High Energy Performance, the French term it "haute performance énergétique (HPE)" - how would you translate the last words (since my French is "too rusty")?
Oh my, what did I start here :) Thank you all for your answers!
I would like to point out that I did say "general" in my opening statement - but in English and in the renewable energy sector. We're not talking about general physics or the like but about something such as energetic performance or "energetische Sanierung", which is an energy-efficient retrofit/refurbishment/renovation in German.
Even in texts apparently translated from French, I get something like the following:
Or a collaborative effort, including a US citizen: "The methodology presented in this paper can be extended to other operational conditions/systems to optimize their energetic performance." http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=27126213
That doesn't sound to me like energy-hungry or am I wrong?
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
8 hrs confidence:
energetic(al)
high-energy
Explanation: ... is conformant in meaning and style of expression.
Václav Pinkava United Kingdom Local time: 13:14 Native speaker of: Czech, English PRO pts in category: 8
Notes to answerer
Asker: Actually, I've already quoted an example of "high-energy" in my question because I know this meaning of the word. However, the word is not used in this sense in the renewable energy sector - as far as I can see, not even in documents by non-native speakers.
Explanation: It's very important to be careful here, in order to avoid a counter-sense.
As Asker rightly points out, this mis-use of 'energetic' very frequently stems from translations from FR (I can't speak for other languages) HOWEVER, when it translates the FR 'énergétique', it actually means 'consumes / requires a lot of energy', 'energy-hungry' etc. — so the opposite of what most contributors here seem to have understood!
In FR, the opposite is 'peu énérgétique' (= 'not very energetic') — THAT's the term that is used for a low-energy or energy-efficient building.
So it's all the more important to use the correct expression in EN!!!
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 8 heures (2014-08-19 06:04:38 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
FR also uses the term 'énergivore' (literally, 'energy-hungry'), which has the merit of being more explicit.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 9 heures (2014-08-19 07:39:08 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
As Charles D. has pointed out, in the specific examples you quote, 'energy' alone is the sense required; my answer was simply to alert you to the other possibility, in case you or future users should encounter this other usage.
Tony M France Local time: 14:14 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you for the additional information! I have posted some discussion entries citing a few references in French.
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +6
energetic(al)
energy (adj)
Explanation: Just "energy", used as an adjective, when it means energy-related. The expression is "energy performance":
The use of "energetic" in this sense is a classic error that arises in Romance languages, such as my main language, Spanish, where "enérgico" means energetic (full of energy) and "energético" means energy-related. I've just had a quick check and it's the same in Italian (minus the accents), which presumably explains your last reference. Ditto French: energique vs. energétique. I bet this is the reason for the examples you have found.
"Energetic" definitely cannot be used in this way in English.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2014-08-18 23:53:59 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
So I had better amend my last statement to say that "energetic" cannot be (or at least it certainly is not normally) used in this way in British English, but perhaps it can in American English.
"Energetical" is listed as an alternative form of "energetic", but it is very much less common.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 10 hrs (2014-08-19 08:11:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
This is quite intriguing. I have just searched for examples of "energetic performance of buildings". There are quite a few, but virtually all emanate from non-native speakers of English: not just French, German, Spanish and Italian, but also Portuguese, Romanian and Dutch. There is one example in the abstract of an article by an Irish author:
Presumably the author (J. Owen Lewis) wrote this. So one can't quite say that a native speaker would never use the expression. Conceivably it is the result of interference from another language.
I am prepared to state categorically that this usage is alien to British English. And indeed the relevant EU directives, 2002/91/CE and 2010/31/UE, have "energy performance" in the titles of their English versions, though some foreign writers cite them in English as "energetic performance".
However, as I've said, the American dictionary definitions seem to allow this usage, and so you find cases like the following, written in the newsletter of one of the top US universities by one Mark Schwartz, who seems to be a native speaker and "writes about energy science and technology at the Precourt Institute for Energy at Stanford University". "Energetic" is repeatedly used here to mean "energy-related": energetic cost, energetic performance, energetic performance, energetic perspective, energetically expensive: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/september/curtail-energy-...
This suggests that "energetic" can be and is used in this sense in the field in American English.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 16 hrs (2014-08-19 14:38:23 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
References for the EU directives, in case anyone wants them:
Charles Davis Spain Local time: 14:14 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Whether CL5 or not is totally irrelevant to me. I can just say: Thank you very much for the comprehensive explanation! And thank you again for all the research into the topic. Special thanks also to Gallagy and Tony for their contributions - the additional research and the important note of caution, respectively. Please see their answers as well. Anyone who may want to look up the word will have a lot of material.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you for your research! I have posted some discussion entries. Maybe you'd like to comment on them.
