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Gender-specific personal pronouns in English.
Thread poster: Richard Robinson
Richard Robinson
Richard Robinson  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:21
Hungarian to English
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Aug 23, 2018

Should I use he/she, him/her, or they/them, as a general personal pronoun?

Before you answer, please read the details:

I'm translating from a language with no gender (Hungarian) so no clue is given in the source text. The text is an extract from a book on an area of psychology (kind of mid-way between "popular psychology" and a serious textbook, aimed at the general reader, some of it is quite dense). It describes development of the child in early infancy.
Somet
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Should I use he/she, him/her, or they/them, as a general personal pronoun?

Before you answer, please read the details:

I'm translating from a language with no gender (Hungarian) so no clue is given in the source text. The text is an extract from a book on an area of psychology (kind of mid-way between "popular psychology" and a serious textbook, aimed at the general reader, some of it is quite dense). It describes development of the child in early infancy.
Sometimes the source text refers to the mother (that's easy to translate, and the pronoun is "she/her") but then the child in Hungarian is always "ő" ... in English I have opted to use "he/him" simply for clarity (because the mother is "she": if the child is "he", it's easier to follow the text). Additionally, this book is about a problem 75 % of whose sufferers are men.

Do you think I am being sexist by using "he-him" to refer to the child?

An example from my translation-in-progress:

The mother who does not reflect or (to use a current term) mentalize her child, that is, she does not consider him as existing in his own right, with an independent mind, intentions, feelings, motivations, goals, and thoughts, creates a devil of a problem. In the "still face" experiments carried out at the end of the 1970s, psychologists looked at what happens to a child if his or her efforts to engage the mother, such as a smile, are met with an indifferent, blank facial expression.


Occasionally the source text talks of a caregiver rather than the mother, that's easy to translate too... but then should it still be "she-her"? Perhaps this pronoun should be "they-them". And occasionally the author even uses the first person to illustrate how someone reacts in certain situation (as a child, and as an adult), so I feel there's some flexibility with style.

Often the solution in these cases is to recast the WHOLE sentence in the plural, but in talking about such intimate mother-child relations I really don't think that would be appropriate. However I might be persuaded to use "they-them" to refer to a singular person ... my worry is that this usage is not yet widespread enough. As yet we don't have a publisher so there is no publisher's style guide to follow.

I'm especially keen to hear from other translators who have translated texts on mother-child relations in early infancy - how did you manage this?

Thanks

[Edited at 2018-08-23 08:53 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-08-23 09:22 GMT]
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Eva Stoppa
Eva Stoppa  Identity Verified
Germany
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English to German
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Is there no neutral form in English? Aug 23, 2018

In German, we have the neutral form "Es" (it), but in English, this doesn't seem to exist. So I think your solution is good.

 
Kang Seok Lee
Kang Seok Lee
South Korea
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English to Korean
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I think they is more suitable in the context of your translation job. Aug 23, 2018

"They" often used with an indefinite third person singular antecedent.
from Merriam Webster Dictionary.

Regards

[Edited at 2018-08-23 09:37 GMT]


Jari Vesterinen
JaneD
neilmac
 
B D Finch
B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
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French to English
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Don't use masculine pronouns Aug 23, 2018

It really isn't acceptable any more to use masculine pronouns as default (even if 75% of the people with the problem are men). "They", "them" and "themself" are now widely accepted as singular, gender-neutral pronouns. (Previously, I used to use "s/he" and "him/her".)

Hedwig Spitzer (X)
Jari Vesterinen
neilmac
 
Christine Andersen
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Denmark
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Danish to English
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He or they Aug 23, 2018

If 75% of sufferers from the specific problem are men, then I think you are justified in using he/him, especially where it is an advantage in distinguishing the child from the mother as she.

Otherwise, after a long life of rephrasing and avoiding singular they, I decided a couple of years ago just to use it when it fell naturally into a sentence. If it's good enough for the Oxford di
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If 75% of sufferers from the specific problem are men, then I think you are justified in using he/him, especially where it is an advantage in distinguishing the child from the mother as she.

Otherwise, after a long life of rephrasing and avoiding singular they, I decided a couple of years ago just to use it when it fell naturally into a sentence. If it's good enough for the Oxford dictionaries, then it's fine by me!

https://weboflanguage.com/2018/07/29/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

Apart from being easier to type, they can usually slip by unnoticed, except by the worst pedants, while he/she or (s)he is almost always distracting.

You can't please all the people all the time, but the chances are that you will get by with a big majority.

You COULD write a short introduction on the lines of 'Man has embraced woman since time immemorial,'
but it is probably not necessary, unless you have other things to explain as well.
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Joe France
Christopher Schröder
MollyRose
JaneD
 
Arabic & More
Arabic & More  Identity Verified
Jordan
Arabic to English
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Make "mother" plural Aug 23, 2018

This is how I might revise your text:

Mothers who don’t reflect or (to use a more contemporary term) “mentalize” their children—meaning that these mothers don’t view their children as existing in their own right (with independent minds, intentions, feelings, motivations, goals, and thoughts of their own)—create a devil of a problem. In the “still face” experiments carried out at the end of the 1970s, psychologists looked at what happens to children whose efforts to e
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This is how I might revise your text:

Mothers who don’t reflect or (to use a more contemporary term) “mentalize” their children—meaning that these mothers don’t view their children as existing in their own right (with independent minds, intentions, feelings, motivations, goals, and thoughts of their own)—create a devil of a problem. In the “still face” experiments carried out at the end of the 1970s, psychologists looked at what happens to children whose efforts to engage their mothers—such as a smile—were met with indifferent looks or blank facial expressions.

Edited to delete irrelevant comments.

[Edited at 2018-08-23 14:58 GMT]
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Raffi Jamgocyan
MollyRose
Ivana UK
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
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Swedish to English
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A tricky one Aug 23, 2018

I have often seen authors alternating between "she" and "he" from chapter to chapter in this kind of book.

In real life I would instinctively put "he" throughout as I see no sexist implications, but then I'm 48 and male.

To my mind, "they" is still too informal for a publication of this kind.

Would writing around it with "her child", "the autistic child" etc be too clumsy?

Good luck. You will inevitably irritate feminists or chauvinists or puri
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I have often seen authors alternating between "she" and "he" from chapter to chapter in this kind of book.

In real life I would instinctively put "he" throughout as I see no sexist implications, but then I'm 48 and male.

To my mind, "they" is still too informal for a publication of this kind.

Would writing around it with "her child", "the autistic child" etc be too clumsy?

Good luck. You will inevitably irritate feminists or chauvinists or purists one way or the other.
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Michele Fauble
 
Sheila Wilson
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English
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Singular they; plural; he or she when obviously correct Aug 23, 2018

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the singular "they". I've read a lot about it recently and I'm convinced now that the objection to it has been fairly recent, and for a long time in the more distant past it was perfectly acceptable. It's time we stopped resisting it, IMHO, especially in this day when a lot of people will be upset by the masculine form being used for everyone.

Obviously you want consistency in your writing, but I don't think you have to slavishly adopt one form
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with the singular "they". I've read a lot about it recently and I'm convinced now that the objection to it has been fairly recent, and for a long time in the more distant past it was perfectly acceptable. It's time we stopped resisting it, IMHO, especially in this day when a lot of people will be upset by the masculine form being used for everyone.

Obviously you want consistency in your writing, but I don't think you have to slavishly adopt one form and force it into every sentence. There's clearly a lot of scope here for talking about mothers and their children, but when you really need to refer to one child then the singular "they" is fine. You could also use "he or she", but too much of that will make most readers want to scream!

By the way, when you say "Additionally, this book is about a problem 75 % of whose sufferers are men", I imagine those men would identify with the children referred to here? In that case, I find it particularly problematic to refer to the child throughout as "he". You're effectively saying this book is for men, about men, and completely ignoring the other 25% - a fairly sizeable minority. As the parent most often referred to is, you say, the mother, then you also risk putting over a really strong message about relationships between mothers and male children, which could be a long way from what the author had in mind. (I'm not sure I've expressed that very clearly, but I do see a problem here and a need to retain the writer's more neutral message.)
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Kay Denney
Christine Andersen
neilmac
B D Finch
JaneD
Rachel Waddington
 
Samuel Murray
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@Richard Aug 23, 2018

Richard Robinson wrote:
The text is an extract from a book... aimed at the general reader...


In this case, I would suggest "the child" and "it". Use "it" only shortly after you've already used "the child" in the same sentence. The "it" may look a bit odd but the reader will get used to it quickly. If you happen upon a chunk of text with too many "your child" and "it", you can use "he/she" and "him/her" for elegant variation. In fact, using the singular they now and then may also be acceptable, if you're doing it to reduce repetitiveness, although I'm not an automatic fan of the singular they.

The mother who does not reflect or (to use a current term) mentalize her child, that is, she does not consider the child as existing in its own right, with an independent mind, intentions, feelings, motivations, goals, and thoughts, creates a devil of a problem. In the "still face" experiments carried out at the end of the 1970s, psychologists looked at what happens to a child if its efforts to engage the mother, such as a smile, are met with an indifferent, blank facial expression.



[Edited at 2018-08-23 12:21 GMT]


Tina Vonhof (X)
 
Trevino Translations (X)
Trevino Translations (X)
France
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French to English
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It is fine... Aug 23, 2018

I agree with S Murray, it is perfectly fine in this context to use "it". The use of plural pronouns to be inclusive is lumbersome and affected to English-speakers.

If you use "it/its" in your above example of text, it reads just fine in English.





[Edited at 2018-08-23 15:14 GMT]


 
Jennifer Levey
Jennifer Levey  Identity Verified
Chile
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It, she, he – and Pat Aug 23, 2018

Three things come to mind here:

1. The most-appropriate approach might depend on the precise nature of the “problem” which predominately affects men. For example, if the text is talking about gender issues, then – even if the Hungarian source text has the advantage (?) of being gender-neutral – it will be important to chose a gendered pronoun and be rigorously consistent in its use (and even switching between those pronouns to match the child’s perhaps changing perception
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Three things come to mind here:

1. The most-appropriate approach might depend on the precise nature of the “problem” which predominately affects men. For example, if the text is talking about gender issues, then – even if the Hungarian source text has the advantage (?) of being gender-neutral – it will be important to chose a gendered pronoun and be rigorously consistent in its use (and even switching between those pronouns to match the child’s perhaps changing perception of “self”). In such circumstances, it would be especially unacceptable to use “it” (as per Samuel’s suggestion).

2. One pragmatic solution I’ve seen (in a text about gender issues, but not specifically as a solution to a problem when translating from a non-gendered language) was to avoid all use of singular third-person pronouns, and instead refer to a fictitious person ambiguously named “Pat”. That is, the text referred by name to a person with a gender-neutral pseudonym instead of using a gendered pronoun. Whether that would be acceptable in the translation of book would be a matter for the translator/author/publisher to decide. It would imply a small departure from the ST (perhaps just a brief NdT), to introduce “Pat” as the mother’s “gender-neutral” child.

3. If there are no other gender issues besides the predominance of male sufferers, I would tend to go along with Samuel’s suggestion, and use “it”. That is, after all, the English neutral third-person singular pronoun, and although some might object on the grounds that it should only be used in reference to objects, the upset it’s use would cause is likely to be less severe than the pain otherwise caused to some readers who seem determined to erase “he/him/his” and “she/her/her” from the English language and psyche.

RL


[Edited at 2018-08-23 16:50 GMT]
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The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 06:21
Russian to English
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What's wrong with simply writing in good English? Aug 23, 2018

The less you think about being or not being "sexist" and more about producing good English copy, the better off you and the readers of your translation will be. Just write in English - not in that horrible politically correct newspeak (and if you ask me, s/he isn't, nor is his/her; his OR her is though).

In a nutshell, the question you are asking is moot because

Chris S wrote:

You will inevitably irritate feminists or chauvinists or purists one way or the other.



 
Christine Andersen
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Denmark
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Use neutral rephrasing where possible? Aug 23, 2018

Could you rephrase to avoid personal pronouns? For instance

The mother who does not reflect or (to use a current term) mentalize her child, that is, she does not consider the child as an autonomous individual, with an independent mind, intentions, feelings, motivations, goals, and thoughts, creates a devil of a problem. In the "still face" experiments carried out at the end of the 1970s, psychologists looked at what happens to a child whose efforts to engage the mother
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Could you rephrase to avoid personal pronouns? For instance

The mother who does not reflect or (to use a current term) mentalize her child, that is, she does not consider the child as an autonomous individual, with an independent mind, intentions, feelings, motivations, goals, and thoughts, creates a devil of a problem. In the "still face" experiments carried out at the end of the 1970s, psychologists looked at what happens to a child whose efforts to engage the mother, such as a smile, are met with an indifferent, blank facial expression.

This takes a bit more effort, but if you call a child 'it', you will be in trouble with at least as many people as if you consistently use he/him - just a different group.

With a combination of pluralising, occasionally using singular they and rephrasing, the question is, will you get a usable text, or will you get a dog's dinner? You will have it play it by ear!

I personally would find he/she etc. clumsy and irritatingly politically correct, especially where the text is dense and calls for concentration. It is a reasonable solution in short texts, legal, for instance, where it is important to underline gender equality, but not in an extended extract from a book. To me it underlines gender, which is not the primary concern in your text. The effects and symptoms of the problem are presumably the same for both genders - as with so many conditions. As I understand it, although more men suffer from the problem, gender is not in itself an issue. Therefore you want to avoid drawing attention to gender where it is not important.

I could name several books and articles I have read where I could tell you a lot about the language and very little about the content!



[Edited at 2018-08-23 21:47 GMT]
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MollyRose
 
Michele Fauble
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Norwegian to English
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He and She Aug 23, 2018

Chris S wrote:

I have often seen authors alternating between "she" and "he" from chapter to chapter in this kind of book.


To my mind, "they" is still too informal for a publication of this kind.


Yes, alternating between "he" and "she" is very common, I would say almost the norm.

Agree about "they".


 
Rachel Fell
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United Kingdom
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Avoid "they" here Aug 23, 2018

Sheila Wilson wrote:

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the singular "they".

There is, in my opinion, very often: it can look lazy or sloppy.
I would say use he/she, him/her, except where it can be avoided.

[Edited at 2018-08-23 23:09 GMT]


Michele Fauble
 
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Gender-specific personal pronouns in English.







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