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Gender-specific personal pronouns in English.
Thread poster: Richard Robinson
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:29
Member (2007)
English
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A few links Aug 30, 2018

Richard Robinson wrote:
At the moment I am tending towards a mixed solution, because I too seem to remember reading material where the pronoun changes. I really like Sheila Wilson's reply, I want so much to believe that you are "right", and I'd love you to give me a link to follow up.

Sorry for the silence, Richard, but I was off for a few days' R&R. I really don't have a lot of time at the moment, with the inevitable backlog, but here are a few links. I don't think there's a great geographical divide on this one; the differences of opinion are at a more personal level.

CMOS in April 2017: http://cmosshoptalk.com/2017/04/03/chicago-style-for-the-singular-they/ This was a big change of opinion for CMOS. Although AP has now authorised the use of singular they, they still advise against it unless a gender-neutral pronoun is clearly required (as in the case of referring to a transgender individual who has expressed a preference).
Some history from Richard Nordquist: https://www.thoughtco.com/singular-they-grammar-1691963

By the way, we're all perfectly happy with "you are" when we're talking to a single person, aren't we? So "are" for a single individual clearly isn't a problem. And we're also happy with "Get yourself breakfast" vs. "Get yourselves breakfast". So why not "themself" vs. "themselves"?


Richard Robinson
 
Georgie Scott
Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 14:29
French to English
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APA style guide Aug 30, 2018

This appears to be a response from APA

"...most formal writing and style guides, including the APA Publication Manual, the Chicago Manual of Style, and the AP Stylebook, do not currently support this usage [of they], deeming it too informal and/or ungrammatical.

Instead, APA recommends several alternatives to the general singular they, including the following:

Make the sentence plural: "Participants indicated their preferences."
Rewrite the sentence t
... See more
This appears to be a response from APA

"...most formal writing and style guides, including the APA Publication Manual, the Chicago Manual of Style, and the AP Stylebook, do not currently support this usage [of they], deeming it too informal and/or ungrammatical.

Instead, APA recommends several alternatives to the general singular they, including the following:

Make the sentence plural: "Participants indicated their preferences."
Rewrite the sentence to replace the pronoun with an article (a, an, or the): "The participant indicated a preference."
Rewrite the sentence to drop the pronoun: "The participant indicated preferences."
Combine both singular pronouns (he or she, she or he, his or her, her or his, etc.): "The participant indicated his or her preferences." (However, avoid overusing this strategy, as it can become cumbersome upon many repetitions.)
These alternatives are also available for you to use when writing in the context of gender diversity if you would prefer them or if you are unsure of the appropriate pronoun to use.

Other alternatives to the singular they are not recommended:

Avoid combination constructions like s/he, (s)he, and he/she because they can look awkward and distracting to the reader.
Do not use either he or she alone to refer to a generic individual—"use of either pronoun unavoidably suggests that specific gender to the reader" (PM § 3.12).
Do not alternate between he and she (e.g., using he in one sentence and she in the next), as this can also become confusing and distracting to the reader."

http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2015/11/the-use-of-singular-they-in-apa-style.html
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Richard Robinson
 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:29
German to English
They it is? Aug 31, 2018

There is also a BPS (British Psychological Society) style guide available online as a PDF. It lists many of the options listed here (with the exception of substituting "Pat" or "Robin" or "Chris" for gendered pronouns). Rephrasing into the plural, rephrasing to avoid using a pronoun, using plural pronouns, replacing the pronoun with an article, and simply omitting the pronouns are all listed as equally valid options and examples are given. It specifically suggests avoiding using both pronouns (u... See more
There is also a BPS (British Psychological Society) style guide available online as a PDF. It lists many of the options listed here (with the exception of substituting "Pat" or "Robin" or "Chris" for gendered pronouns). Rephrasing into the plural, rephrasing to avoid using a pronoun, using plural pronouns, replacing the pronoun with an article, and simply omitting the pronouns are all listed as equally valid options and examples are given. It specifically suggests avoiding using both pronouns (unless used sparingly), alternating between he and she, using s/he, and noting at the outset that "he" will actually be used to refer to men and women (Section 10.1).

By the way: If you follow the Chicago link and look closely, you'll see that the headline is misleading: Chicago still rejects the kind of singular "they" being discussed here. What Chicago now accepts is using "they" to respect an individual's personal preference (I could imagine that might be P-Orridge's favored pronoun). Sheila has explained that this is also the position of the Associated Press (AP).

And when I referred to the author's wishes, I meant that in a more abstract sense than specifically asking a Hungarian author about a fine point of English usage. I guess I was thinking that any highly visible solution to this issue would be a little absurd if the content of the book repeatedly reproduces sexist stereotypes and attitudes with little or no further comment.

So, I think I'm agreeing with you, Sheila, Christine and others when I say that the singular "they" seems like a good solution for you in this case. It's generally plausible, you're comfortable with it, it's reasonably easy to use, and you can point to authoritative support (even if other sources disagree), so it seems like a good solution - regardless of my personal preferences).
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Richard Robinson
 
Susan Welsh
Susan Welsh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:29
Russian to English
+ ...
Living language is not based on rules Sep 4, 2018

Richard Robinson wrote:

I want so much to believe that you are "right..."


This thread shows that there is no one usage that sounds "right" to everyone. (It might be interesting if everyone who posted had written their age.) While in general singular they sounds awful to me (I'm 68), in my previous sentence I wrote "their" referring to "everyone" without batting an eyelash, even though I would certainly use a singular verb to go with "everyone."

In my translations, I use a variety of approaches, as others have suggested, and as you did, Richard, in your draft translation. I never use "s/he," and I avoid "he or she" but use it occasionally.

It is also worth keeping in mind how different our different languages are in respect of the grammatical aspect of gender. As Mark Twain famously wrote about German (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Tramp_Abroad/Appendix_D):

"Every noun has a gender, and there is no sense or system in the distribution; so the gender of each must be learned separately and by heart. There is no other way. To do this, one has to have a memory like a memorandum book. In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has. Think what overwrought reverence that shows for the turnip, and what callous disrespect for the girl. See how it looks in print—I translate this from a conversation in one of the best of the German Sunday-school books:
“Gretchen.⁠ Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
“Wilhelm.⁠ She has gone to the kitchen.
“Gretchen. ⁠Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
“Wilhelm.⁠ It has gone to the opera."

"To continue with the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female,—Tom-cats included, of course; a person's mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body, are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it,—for in Germany all the women wear either male heads or sexless ones; a person's nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, hips, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience, haven't any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay."

(Sorry for the length, but I love this quote.)


Sheila Wilson
 
Richard Robinson
Richard Robinson  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:29
Hungarian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Initially sceptical but yes you are right Sep 25, 2018

[quote]Samuel Murray wrote:

Richard Robinson wrote:
The text is an extract from a book... aimed at the general reader...


In this case, I would suggest "the child" and "it". Use "it" only shortly after you've already used "the child" in the same sentence. The "it" may look a bit odd but the reader will get used to it quickly. If you happen upon a chunk of text with too many "your child" and "it", you can use "he/she" and "him/her" for elegant variation. In fact, using the singular they now and then may also be acceptable, if you're doing it to reduce repetitiveness, although I'm not an automatic fan of the singular they.


Thanks for that Samuel. I must admit I was sceptical until I came across this youtube video, narrated by Alain de Botton in his impeccable English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkSGP3Sk14U (particularly from 1:00 onwards)


 
Richard Robinson
Richard Robinson  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:29
Hungarian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks to all Sep 25, 2018

Thank you all for your considered thoughtful replies. I'm following up those links...

 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Sheets Sep 25, 2018

Susan Welsh wrote:
...
"To continue with the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter...


In Italian, bed sheets are masculine for as long as they're in the cupboard (i lenzuoli). But as soon as you put them on the bed, they change gender and become feminine (le lenzuola). Don't ask me why.


Susan Welsh
 
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Gender-specific personal pronouns in English.







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