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How much editing is required of translators?
Thread poster: dieuebersetzung
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:22
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Unlucky... Jun 10, 2020

dieuebersetzung wrote:

What can I say?


I guess? Who can expect this mess from an "experienced" translator? This is really basic stuff.


 
dieuebersetzung
dieuebersetzung
Austria
TOPIC STARTER
Sure.... Jun 10, 2020

Philippe Etienne wrote:


What if your PDF-to-Word conversion was as horrible as OCRed Word files from very clear, editable PDFs made from PPT, InDesign, and even Word itself?




I know how bad some conversions can be and of course you don't know me and can't know what the file looked like. You'll have to take my word for it that it was a good conversion, that the usual small problems refer to maybe the off image jumping to the next page. Tell you what, that wouldn't have been a problem at all. I can do that myself and wouldn't even mention it. But the way she started and went through made any later amendment impossible. Only way is to use the original file and copy the translation manually, after reducing the font of course.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 20:22
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Robert Jun 10, 2020

dieuebersetzung wrote:
But we're talking about a person who I found here, who claims to be an experienced translator. What can I say?


I guess the take away is that a person can be utterly unskilled at Word and still be able to create an impressive-looking profile page. (-: By the way, how is the translation -- is it a good translation or a bad translation?


 
dieuebersetzung
dieuebersetzung
Austria
TOPIC STARTER
Don't know Jun 10, 2020

Haven't had the nerve to look at it yet.
For me, this is closed, I will do it myself and calculate a reasonable fee for it.
She keeps telling me that the font was so small (Calibri/Arial 24-28pt).
She tells me that it's a beautiful Word file and looks almost like the original PDF (179 pages vs 105, images all over the place...)
Fact is, when you use font size 88 for a document with some images in it, you mess it up.
Only way now is to reduce the font and copy-paste
... See more
Haven't had the nerve to look at it yet.
For me, this is closed, I will do it myself and calculate a reasonable fee for it.
She keeps telling me that the font was so small (Calibri/Arial 24-28pt).
She tells me that it's a beautiful Word file and looks almost like the original PDF (179 pages vs 105, images all over the place...)
Fact is, when you use font size 88 for a document with some images in it, you mess it up.
Only way now is to reduce the font and copy-paste it in the original file which is what I have begun to do. No fun work but no rocket science.
All this could have easily been avoided and yet she won't see reason and asks me to honour her repair attempts which I already told her 5 days ago were futile if she uses her messed up file).
I feel sorry for her as she used a lot of time trying to fix this but then she also gave me so much wrong info and even accused me of being lazy because I don't do it myself.
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Kaspars Melkis
Kaspars Melkis  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:22
English to Latvian
+ ...
You should teach that translator how to do the work Jun 11, 2020

Pick up the phone and guide her through the text so that she can do the work properly.

The lack of feedback is the biggest problem in translation industry today. The amount of ignorance, biases, lack of knowledge about technical issues is very concerning.

Once I spent more than an hour teaching another translator how to do something simple, like turning on track changes in the Word. At the end the translator was surprised that I had the patience to deal with it. The tr
... See more
Pick up the phone and guide her through the text so that she can do the work properly.

The lack of feedback is the biggest problem in translation industry today. The amount of ignorance, biases, lack of knowledge about technical issues is very concerning.

Once I spent more than an hour teaching another translator how to do something simple, like turning on track changes in the Word. At the end the translator was surprised that I had the patience to deal with it. The translator wasn't stupid, it just happens to everyone that to have some blind spots or holes of knowledge. Later, this translator helped me with several jobs and the time spent was very good investment.

I was lucky to have 7 years in-house experience when we discussed linguistic and technical issues every day. Nowadays, most translators work alone without any human contact and feedback. No one is perfect, everbody can make mistakes or be confused about something. And yet, if you have no feedback, you can be stuck at your level for 10, even 20 years. It is as if the industry doesn't want you to progress and would prefer you to stay as a online PEMT operator being paid the lowest rates.
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MollyRose
 
Rachel Waddington
Rachel Waddington  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:22
Dutch to English
+ ...
Incompatibility Jun 11, 2020

dieuebersetzung wrote:

She keeps telling me that the font was so small (Calibri/Arial 24-28pt).
She tells me that it's a beautiful Word file and looks almost like the original PDF (179 pages vs 105, images all over the place...)


I'm wondering if there is some incompatibility between your Word versions that is making what looks OK on your translator's computer look very much not OK on yours.

The only other possibility is that your translator is simply lying to you.


Ron Willems
 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
As is: Alternative truths Jun 11, 2020

Actually, everything started with an agreement, so now it's just words.

Meanwhile, different DPI scan/conversion settings, missing fonts, accessibility tweaks, ultra-hi-res/4k monitors, forced updates, and other stuff still may trick even a clever mind.


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:22
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
A picture being worth a thousand words... Jun 11, 2020

Rachel Waddington wrote:
I'm wondering if there is some incompatibility between your Word versions that is making what looks OK on your translator's computer look very much not OK on yours.

Could be. Perhaps if she can take and send a screenshot to the OP that would resolve the issue? I frequently use screenshots when troubleshooting issues with clients.

Regards,
Dan


Zibow Retailleau
 
Stepan Konev
Stepan Konev  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 22:22
English to Russian
What I still cannot understand is Jun 11, 2020

why did you convert PowerPoint into PDF and then into Word?
This question was asked twice (at least, if I did not oversee others), but I failed to find any answer. You blame the translator for unprofessional behavior, but unprofessionalism starts from this irrational conversion. Even if you were just an intermediary between the client and the translator, and even if you didn't know whether native files exist or not, you were to ask for the native file(s) first before contacting the transl
... See more
why did you convert PowerPoint into PDF and then into Word?
This question was asked twice (at least, if I did not oversee others), but I failed to find any answer. You blame the translator for unprofessional behavior, but unprofessionalism starts from this irrational conversion. Even if you were just an intermediary between the client and the translator, and even if you didn't know whether native files exist or not, you were to ask for the native file(s) first before contacting the translator. So... why you didn't?
The more so you mentioned that you copy the translation and paste it in the original file now (which is pptx I assume).
BTW what was the target language? For example, Russian is two times longer than English.

Another thing beyond my understanding, if you used her services for the first time, why didn’t you asked her to send you first 10 pages as soon as done?
I agree with others, it is not that easy to find a good subcontractor.
To summarize:
- next time always ask for native files (your client may think you don’t need it because pdf looks more beautiful than powerpoint);
- always ask your translator to return 5 to 10 pages once done;
- ask the translator if they can use CAT tools, even if you don’t care whether they use it or not. If they can, header formatting in MS Word would be no big deal for them because translator’s using CAT tools means the translator is more tech-savvy than those who don’t use CAT tools;
- arrange to check the quality of translation (since she behaves as a starter in formatting, most probably she is a starter in translation too).

[Edited at 2020-06-12 07:53 GMT]
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Philippe Etienne
Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 20:22
Member
English to French
PDF as source file Jun 12, 2020

Stepan Konev wrote:
...why did you convert PowerPoint into PDF and then into Word?...

What I understand is that the OP got a PDF source file, originating from an unexisting PPT. The OP doesn't have the underlying PPT, s/he converts it to Word using Adobe and sends the resulting Word file for translation.

A typical scenario: user manual for a piece of equipment. The owner's got a pdf from the manufacturer's website, but only in EN. They want it in FR for reference, but of course don't have and can't get the underlying file.


A single-person agency client sometimes sends me large editable PDF files for translation. the PDFs often originate from Word, and she usually can't get hold of the underlying files.
As an incentive to get the original file, I always state that the translation may cost up to 50% more without the underlying source file, but the translation user usually doesn't have it. They don't create the document, don't have it and just need the translation, vaguely resembling the original, with updated table of contents, glossary sections in alphabetical order and various added tasks.

From there, either you get a DTP specialist who creates a translation-friendly source file, reinserts the translation and makes the resulting PDF file all nice and dandy. If the end client/agency does proofreading and makes changes, the DTP specialist has to remain "contracted" until the client is satisfied. This route is not always practicable or cost-effective.

I hear the Iceni Infix software performs well to get a translation-friendly source text (xml or something), but the client only gets a pdf, and you will have to be "contracted" until any changes made by the end client/agency are implemented in the PDF.

In most cases, I end up converting the PDF to Word by OCR, see how repulsive the best outcome is after tweaking the OCR program, and:
*either edit this conversion to make it translation-friendlier, - as a translator, I know exactly how to make an OCRed file "workable" comfortably -,
*or give up, copy-paste the plain text content - it's almost always a good-looking, editable file -, use the AutoUnbreak utility and rebuild the layout from scratch (footers, contents, links, title styles, page numbering, image screenshots, etc.).

The time I spend on creating a "good" source Word file is charged by the hour, and results in a target Word file with minimal layout changes, if any, as a last step. Of course I use a CAT tool/ The cleaned source Word file often reveals a lot of repeats that offset the added hassle of Word formatting tasks, which I am not especially fond of.

Philippe

[Edited at 2020-06-12 08:18 GMT]


Stepan Konev
 
Stepan Konev
Stepan Konev  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 22:22
English to Russian
Agree but Jun 12, 2020

Philippe Etienne wrote:
What I understand is that the OP got a PDF source file, originating from an unexisting PPT. The OP doesn't have the underlying PPT, s/he converts it to Word using Adobe and sends the resulting Word file for translation.

the OP mentioned he had the original file in PowerPoint. As far as I understand, he ended up with pasting the translation into it. At least, the OP is aware of the PP native file, which means it is far from 'unexisting'.

*Update:
Well, ok... Maybe I misunderstood, and the 'original file' stands for docx, not pptx. But even so, asking for native files is an obvious step before translation. From what you described, I understand that you try to get native files if possible. Sure. So do I. It's obvious.

[Edited at 2020-06-12 11:01 GMT]


Philippe Etienne
 
dieuebersetzung
dieuebersetzung
Austria
TOPIC STARTER
Update Jun 12, 2020

Rachel Waddington wrote:


I'm wondering if there is some incompatibility between your Word versions that is making what looks OK on your translator's computer look very much not OK on yours.

The only other possibility is that your translator is simply lying to you.


I considered all options and this doesn't seem to be the case.
I also sent her screenshot on 3 occasions that she ignored, insisting I should look at her file (the screenshots were of her file to show her how messed up it looks).
When she sent me the 3rd "repaired" version she said it's not a beautiful Word file. Again, totally messed up with images only partially on the screen, many blank pages...
The she said that on her screen all looks ok. So I ask for a pdf to make sure and guide her through the export process. When it comes and of course looks like the Word-file, the "beautiful" file now suddenly needs "some editing work".
I explained to her that there is in my opinion not the least sense in continuing to work on her 658-page version which is just not fixable. I would reduce the font all over that version an copy-past the translation into the original Word file with the source text. That's what I have done and it works.

As for why I didn't send her the PPT file- I don't have it. I got a PDF and converted it. As far as PDF-Word conversions go, this was a really good one, I have seen so many that are a pain, I know. This was one that I never expected problems from.

Last update: Wednesday I told her that I see no sense in her trying to amend the file. She told me she wants to try it. I told her that I really feel for her, but if she continues to send me messed up files it's just time wasted. She obviously doesn't know how to do it and after the original mistake (writing all in a huge font, jumbling up every page with 1 image on it), there was no way to remedy this without loosing much more time than just going the way described above. Her answer? "I'm sure it'll be ok". That's the same translator who told me I should just send the 658 page version to my customer, it'll probably be ok for him. And who then again wrote me of the 450 page version "I recommend to you again to just send this file to your customer, I'm sure it'll be ok".

So there you go....

Ah, on more word to trying to help her: That would be a lost cause, I think so much is obvious. But I did tell her from the start that I am always glad to help if there a re any quations whatsoever. I always mention this to new translators. Alas, she didn't contact me in time to avoid all this, she just went on and destroyed the layout completely.

To sum this up: I don't think translators are responsible for a perfect layout. Some would have taken the time to make the font smaller in this case or to make the image slammer on the page by just sliding the corner. That's what I would have done in this case, maybe after checking with the agency. Or you just ignore it when the odd image jumps to the next page because the sentence in the target language is longer. Ok, this I would have accepted without a word. But to just continue to mess it up is not ok. The translator IS responsible, however, for not willingly or negligently messing up a file. That's all there is to it.


 
dieuebersetzung
dieuebersetzung
Austria
TOPIC STARTER
No scan Jun 12, 2020

DZiW wrote:

Actually, everything started with an agreement, so now it's just words.

Meanwhile, different DPI scan/conversion settings, missing fonts, accessibility tweaks, ultra-hi-res/4k monitors, forced updates, and other stuff still may trick even a clever mind.


You may not have read much of this thread but there was so scan issue or similar. Also, you don't need a 4k monitor to make out Calibri in 28pt.
It was just an order to translate an the unspoken assumption that the file would not be messed up through very careless and unprofessional work.
After thousands of jobs, this is the first time I am having such discussion.


 
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