| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | How much editing is required of translators? Thread poster: dieuebersetzung
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I really didn't think that it would become such a problem.
And believe it or not, the lady who doesn't know how to change the font in Word doesn't use a CAT tool
Frankly, even if I had used PowerPoint (provided I would have got the file) I don't think it would have turned out any better, as there would be a lot of text boxes there and they are even harder to work with.
| | | | | Did you make that clear from the start? | Jun 9, 2020 |
dieuebersetzung wrote:
The usual small problems are only those that you may need to make the font smaller in order not to make a page break. Or reduce the size of an image.
This goes beyond what I believe you can reasonably expect to be included in a standard translation task.
I'm with you as long as it's about preserving the original fonts and font sizes and other layout, much like a CAT tool would do.
But manually adapting the font size for a large number of titles is additional work that could justify an additional fee.
Furthermore, the translator could rightly be criticised for making changes to the image and font sizes if no instruction was given to do so.
If you expect such layout work, you need to state it up front and possibly accept an additional charge for it.
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There was not that much to do, really.
But if you translate such a document and you see that your font size, which is 88 instead of 24 in the original destroys the layout completely, why do you continue?
I said on some pages, where there is more than 2 sentences (a few pages), you need to make the font smaller. That's no biggie in my book.
Messing everything up with a huge font is.
| | | | Kaspars Melkis 
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:17
English to Latvian
+ ...
| That's very cheap | Jun 9, 2020 |
dieuebersetzung wrote:
Yes, the fee was normal, 10 Cents per word. And a text that doesn't require much research.
My rate starts from 14 cents per word.
And if I had agreed to do formatting as well, I would ask additional payment per hour. It may seem simple but changing font in each box and resizing pictures over 100 pages can easily take several hours.
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Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:17
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Maybe the translator used a CAT tool | Jun 9, 2020 |
and the exported file got the font size wrong. I had this issue once when I exported some ppt files. Sometimes CAT tools are not worth it due to additional formatting work you are required to do. And working with powerpoint files is very annoying too. They definitely require surcharge above the per-word rate.
| | | | | File conversions | Jun 9, 2020 |
It sounds like you may have provided the translator with a file that looked OK in its original format but contained formatting problems that became evident when it was translated. This is very common with file conversions from pdf. I do think it's your job to provide a source file that can be translated (e.g. using a CAT tool) without the formatting going awry. I wouldn't consider things like resizing images to be the translator's job.
Having said that, it sounds like the translator... See more It sounds like you may have provided the translator with a file that looked OK in its original format but contained formatting problems that became evident when it was translated. This is very common with file conversions from pdf. I do think it's your job to provide a source file that can be translated (e.g. using a CAT tool) without the formatting going awry. I wouldn't consider things like resizing images to be the translator's job.
Having said that, it sounds like the translator hasn't done much to help the situation, and could at the very least have communicated better. I wouldn't return something that is basically just a mess to my client even if I feel I'm being expected to do something that is beyond my remit.
Perhaps all you can do here is to tidy up the file yourself and use a different translator in the future. ▲ Collapse
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Believe me, the file was ok. It was a very good conversion and if on some pages there was the need to do a tiny bit of editing (takes 5 seconds), that should be included.
On the other hand, what earthly reason can there be to take the huge font size from page 1 and continue with it throughout the document? That was what messed it up, not the file per se.
Again: Font 88 instead of 24 or 28. That's a few letters per page, it's ridiculous.
| | | | DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
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| DTP is a very different thing | Jun 9, 2020 |
While I agree with you guys, sometimes even different versions of MS Office do rather weird trick, adding to the fuss. For instance, once I got a Ru-En-Deu .RTF file converted via updated Word'2003 into .DOCx format, which was slightly modified in MS Office for Mac, later saved as .DOC in OpenOffice/FreeOffice and re-imported in Word'2007/9--and all with different locales. Guess what? You bet!
It appeared that one user shared the document, the other tracked changes, whereas another ... See more While I agree with you guys, sometimes even different versions of MS Office do rather weird trick, adding to the fuss. For instance, once I got a Ru-En-Deu .RTF file converted via updated Word'2003 into .DOCx format, which was slightly modified in MS Office for Mac, later saved as .DOC in OpenOffice/FreeOffice and re-imported in Word'2007/9--and all with different locales. Guess what? You bet!
It appeared that one user shared the document, the other tracked changes, whereas another used a compatibility mode to compensate the fonts and formatting differences to no avail. Furthermore, it contained an embedded Excel table and a few objects, finally rendering it a real mess.
So far, a PDF (especially 'dead' or scanned without proper OCR) is a pre/print document, NOT intended for easy editing--including translation. That's why it requires extra efforts, time, and charge too. In business nothing goes by default.
In fact, I liked how old WordFast copied formatted segments from Adobe to MS Word.
Besides, several times I got EFS-encrypted files copied without decryption... Hopefully, the time for universal/multi-field (unlike 'pure'-translators) is coming--even at higher costs ▲ Collapse
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Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:17
English to Latvian
+ ...
dieuebersetzung wrote:
Believe me, the file was ok. It was a very good conversion and if on some pages there was the need to do a tiny bit of editing (takes 5 seconds), that should be included.
On the other hand, what earthly reason can there be to take the huge font size from page 1 and continue with it throughout the document? That was what messed it up, not the file per se.
Again: Font 88 instead of 24 or 28. That's a few letters per page, it's ridiculous.
It happens because font 88 is set as a default font of the document 88, whereas the text is set to a different size. When you work on a document in a CAT tool, it often exports to the default font size.
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dieuebersetzung wrote:
...The conversion looks good and identical to the pdf but of course, there are always small problems when the text of the translation gets longer than the original...
and
...The usual small problems are only those that you may need to make the font smaller in order not to make a page break. Or reduce the size of an image...
Ah. The target file is a Word file, and there was no wizardry after translation to get a target PPT file. So the "small problems" you refer to are not the usual small problems with formatting encountered with low-density translated PPT files.
Formatting problems in Word are definitely not "usual" for me, and I don't change fonts or mess about with margins or image sizes in Word. Most companies would not take lightly a misplaced image, smaller logo or different font. In Word target files, I may add a page break, widen a column or remove a line break if the order specifies "proper target file". Nothing much more complicated.
In fact, I mess about with formatting in source Word files post-OCR only, when the order is "translate PDF, roughly identical formatting".
What if your PDF-to-Word conversion was as horrible as OCRed Word files from very clear, editable PDFs made from PPT, InDesign, and even Word itself?
The resulting Word documents do look good, but only when on screen without hidden text. Or printed. In fact, they are as translation-friendly as medical records hand-written by an overworked doctor on speed.
Without advanced Word skills, formatting can be a nightmare in terms of translation-friendliness: embedded tables, fixed width/length cells, text boxes, anchors, sections breaks, multi-columns, the works. Simply moving an image can add a blank page or indents, hide text, center the footer and what-not because of the total mess some OCR programs make with formatting.
I've never tried to OCR on a simple PPT file converted to PDF, but the resulting Word file must be a beauty.
You seem definite that the translator doesn't know how to change font sizes in Word. I find it odd that such specimens still exist, and you must have been very unfortunate.
I hope your attempts at damage control have been successful.
Philippe
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 02:17
English to Arabic
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| About the same much required of clients, facilitation&empowerment-wise | Jun 9, 2020 |
For this incident, think of your translator as an interior designer. They are supposed to do everything explicitly required by you, as long as:
- It's doable;
- They have the skill for it;
- They have the tool (i.e. software), or you provided such tool, for it;
- They're paid accordingly, of/to their choice/satisfaction, respectively; and
- They're timed accordingly, again, of/to their choice/satisfaction, respectively.
Lacking on any of the 5 po... See more For this incident, think of your translator as an interior designer. They are supposed to do everything explicitly required by you, as long as:
- It's doable;
- They have the skill for it;
- They have the tool (i.e. software), or you provided such tool, for it;
- They're paid accordingly, of/to their choice/satisfaction, respectively; and
- They're timed accordingly, again, of/to their choice/satisfaction, respectively.
Lacking on any of the 5 points above renders your requirement(s) unattainable.
In such case, it becomes your task to provide a blank format for them (provided they're willing) to input their translations there.
Also, scrolling through 105 pages for 1-2 sentences (probably with no (consistent) context) a page is quite the pain in the translator's behind.
dieuebersetzung wrote:
But if you make 658 pages out of 105 and work with font size 88 instead of 24....what does that say?
On the other hand, what earthly reason can there be to take the huge font size from page 1 and continue with it throughout the document? That was what messed it up, not the file per se.
It says she was perhaps more interested in finishing the translation than in landscaping. Was she right about that? Only the above terms can answer this question.
But, you never said whether the translation was good!
Anyway, is CTRL+A (highlight all) & choose 24 on Font Size's drop-down menu not working for either one of you? You could try instructing her to do so, or otherwise do it yourself. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Communication, communication, communication | Jun 9, 2020 |
There are many variants of this classic cartoon, which is as relevant as ever:
Countless topics we're debating in this forum stem from the failure to agree on essential specifications and terms up front, such as:
• What the contractor is expected to deliver
• In which format
• When
• What their compensation should be
• How they are to be paid
• When they are to be paid
• If the outsourcer intends to withhold any local taxes
• If the outsourcer has a VAT number (or similar tax question).
Some outsourcers can be pushy, trying to get the contractor to start working before the basics have been agreed.
The usual consequences of skipping this essential step are all sorts of disagreements that should have been settled before any work commenced.
An outsourcer from a Latin American country have asked about my availability a couple of times. Every time I ask how they intend to pay, they stop replying. It may be a coincidence or it may be because they can only pay through an expensive international bank transfer which would cost as much as the work they want.
There is simply no substitute for proper communication, whether it’s in a couple or in business relations. Neglect it at your peril.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
dieuebersetzung wrote:
On the other hand, what earthly reason can there be to take the huge font size from page 1 and continue with it throughout the document? Font 88 instead of 24 or 28. That's a few letters per page, it's ridiculous.
The only way I can see how a translator who does not use a CAT tool could continue is if they had Word set to draft view (instead of printing view) and that they think that zooming out reduces the font size. Also, sometimes word wrap is "off" in draft view, so you won't notice that there is only one or two words per printed line.
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
It happens because font 88 is set as a default font of the document 88, whereas the text is set to a different size.
This may also be a possibility, yes. If the translator received the file and then changed all text to the normal font (either manually or due to using a different program), and the document's normal font is defined as size 88, then it will change all text to size 88.
Are you sure the translator uses the same or a similar version of Word? Could it be that the translator uses a different word processor?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| | Original file | Jun 10, 2020 |
The font size of the original was 88 on page 1, the heading.
The rest was in 24 and 28.
The translator is not using a CAT tool, she doesn't even know the basics of word.
I also believe we're not using incompatible versions as she never disputed that she delivered 658 pages and tried to bring it down.
In her last message she also said that some of the characters were barely legible, which made it hard for her. This is totally beyond me as the average font size is maybe 10p... See more The font size of the original was 88 on page 1, the heading.
The rest was in 24 and 28.
The translator is not using a CAT tool, she doesn't even know the basics of word.
I also believe we're not using incompatible versions as she never disputed that she delivered 658 pages and tried to bring it down.
In her last message she also said that some of the characters were barely legible, which made it hard for her. This is totally beyond me as the average font size is maybe 10pt, here we have 24-28 Arial, not some strange font.
I appreciate your trying to find ways to explain this but the way I see it is this: someone who delivers a document with over 5 times the original number of pages, who told you twice to just deliver it to your end customer, he'll probably be ok with it, who not once replied why on earth she used 88 all the way but rather just tries to argue that the last version is closer to 105 pages (169)...it's pointless to argue with such a person.
We've exchanged some 20 messages now and this is the first time in 8 years that I have a problem with a translator. Never seen anything like it, after getting thousands of translations over the years.
The only thing I could imagine after her mentioning the small characters is that she set Word to zoom level 25 or something and then used the huge font to see it. But we're talking about a person who I found here, who claims to be an experienced translator. What can I say? ▲ Collapse
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