| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Add a feature to allow us to correct writing in non-native languages? Thread poster: Preston Decker
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One of the ways translators lose work is being assessed by clients on their writing skills in their second language. Obviously the most common form of this is emails; English emails full of grammatical mistakes instantly give me a lower opinion of the sender's translation abilities, even if English is not their native language, and I'm sure many agencies/clients have this same reaction.
My written Chinese is not very good compared to my reading level in Chinese, and this turns into ... See more One of the ways translators lose work is being assessed by clients on their writing skills in their second language. Obviously the most common form of this is emails; English emails full of grammatical mistakes instantly give me a lower opinion of the sender's translation abilities, even if English is not their native language, and I'm sure many agencies/clients have this same reaction.
My written Chinese is not very good compared to my reading level in Chinese, and this turns into a snowball effect--I don't write much in Chinese because I'm afraid of what others will think, and because I don't write much my writing has probably gotten worse, not better, over the five + years I've been translating. In my case this doesn't really affect my business, because I have a wife and business partner who is Chinese and is always there to correct the few Chinese emails I do write, but I'm sure that if this wasn't the case and I had to correspond with clients in Chinese, grammatical mistakes would hurt my business significantly with them. Based upon the emails I receive from non-native English speakers, practice without correction does not usually make perfect, and I don't think simply writing a lot is sufficient for most to master writing in their second languages.
I'm wondering if Proz might be able to help members with this problem--how about a site feature that allows members to sign up for a mutual critique program? Basically you could start things with a private interface that allowed members to correct grammatical mistakes in the forums posts of Proz members who were also signed up in this program. These corrections would be sent via private email to the member, and the correcter would get a certain number of Cake points or Coffee points or whatever Proz wanted to call them, which would entitle them to also receive corrections for their own posts. You'd have the option of toggling on or off the program and of choosing the languages you wanted to be corrected in (so you could toggle off your mother language if you don't want to receive snarky emails regarding dropped apostrophes, etc. when writing a fast response)
Proz has lots of features for improving reading and translation skills, but this would be truly unique and I'm convinced this would give Proz members a business advantage, as it would allow members to improve their writing skills in their second language. I think this would also help improve participation by translators in the forums in their second languages (I know I would post more in the Chinese forum if doing so actually helped improve my written Chinese). If things went well, you could open this feature up even more, perhaps by providing a portal to allow translators to critique other members' resumes, draft emails, etc. in return for critiques of their own.
I'll be interested to see if anyone else thinks this is a good idea and if Proz staff are interested in this.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 04:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Watkinson 
Spain
Local time: 07:18
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
I must admit that my reaction to this is simply that anyone purporting to translate out of language X should be able to write it almost as well as their target language at the very least.
How can you possibly make actual mistakes writing in a language you're supposed to master?
Somewhat immodestly, I believe I can write Spanish rather better than a majority of Spaniards, but for the simple reason they haven't been studying it for the past 49 years and why should they? ... See more I must admit that my reaction to this is simply that anyone purporting to translate out of language X should be able to write it almost as well as their target language at the very least.
How can you possibly make actual mistakes writing in a language you're supposed to master?
Somewhat immodestly, I believe I can write Spanish rather better than a majority of Spaniards, but for the simple reason they haven't been studying it for the past 49 years and why should they?
It's not their job.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 04:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Preston Decker
United States
Local time: 01:18
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Andy Watkinson wrote:
I must admit that my reaction to this is simply that anyone purporting to translate out of language X should be able to write it almost as well as their target language at the very least.
How can you possibly make actual mistakes writing in a language you're supposed to master?
Somewhat immodestly, I believe I can write Spanish rather better than a majority of Spaniards, but for the simple reason they haven't been studying it for the past 49 years and why should they?
It's not their job.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 04:23 GMT]
Based upon the thousands of emails I've received from non-native English speakers (translators, PMs and direct clients), the posts in English in these forums by non-native speakers, and the uproar caused when translators translate into their non-native language, I've concluded the exact opposite-- rare is the individual who can write perfectly in their non-native language, even if they have been studying for decades.
Now, I'm not one of those who think it an impossibility to write natively in one's second language, but it is a rare talent/acquired skill. I can think of only two regular non-English native posters to these forums who I feel write natively in English.
So I'm a bit confused, are you saying that you should be able to write at a near-native level (by which I mean something along the order of 2-3 grammatical mistakes every 1000 words) in your second language to be a translator? If so, 99% of the members on Proz would be instantly disqualified. The hallmark of a good translator is their ability to understand written material in their second language, not write it.
With that said, one of the secondary marks of a good translator is the desire to continue mastering all aspects of their second language, and that would be the point of this feature.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 04:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-11-04 04:56 GMT]
Edit: As I wrote above, despite the fact that I do not think one's writing ability in a non-native language is necessarily linked to translation ability (although it can be), Andy's response and my own reaction when reading poorly written English emails I receive prove my point that improving one's writing skills in a non-native language is vital to business success.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 05:07 GMT]
| | | | | Proficiency in source language | Nov 4, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
So I'm a bit confused, are you saying that you should be able to write at a near-native level (by which I mean something along the order of 2-3 grammatical mistakes every 1000 words) in your second language to be a translator? If so, 99% of the members on Proz would be instantly disqualified. The hallmark of a good translator is their ability to understand written material in their second language, not write it.
I'm afraid that wouldn't be a great loss... In one of my language pairs, it would instantly improve the quality of KudoZ questions, and efforts spent on answering questions grade schoolers could clarify (yes, some questions are like that) would be saved.
I have mixed feelings about this proposal. I think a translator should be able to write in her source language, even with the typical non-native mistakes, at a quality that shouldn't raise questions about her proficiency in her native language. I don't see how someone who masters a source language could grossly misuse expressions or grossly misspell words in e-mails, in the languages I know. For example, a weird but clear phrase here and there, wrong prepositions, misplaced punctuation marks - I think these things wouldn't make me doubt a translator's ability in her native language.
This may be a language-specific issue, too. Some languages are probably more difficult and complex to write than others.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:18
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Very complex task. | Nov 4, 2016 |
Are you aware that correcting someone's syntax and writing flow is a complex task? Are you sure that 1) every native speaker is trained to do that (not enough to be a native speaker) and 2) if they are a trained professional, they will have the time to do it for free? and 3) if there is an exchange of service involved both sides will do it equally well?
Obviously, not enough to spot an error you need to figure out why it happened, how to prevent it, and guide the person through the ... See more Are you aware that correcting someone's syntax and writing flow is a complex task? Are you sure that 1) every native speaker is trained to do that (not enough to be a native speaker) and 2) if they are a trained professional, they will have the time to do it for free? and 3) if there is an exchange of service involved both sides will do it equally well?
Obviously, not enough to spot an error you need to figure out why it happened, how to prevent it, and guide the person through the process. Just being a native speaker without other insights is simply not enough.
I have yet to find someone trained and skilled to do it who would do it for free.
All these skills are related: writing, reading, speaking, understanding. Think of professional athletes, they do conditioning, muscle training, cardio and all sorts of various preparations before they can perform well - combined skills. Writing is a more advanced skill than reading, and speaking more advanced than understanding. That's why you will see many language students reporting how they have no problems understanding or reading, but have issues with written expression or speaking, and it may take years or more probably decades of practice and professional guidance before they can bridge up these two sets of skills. But this is just a tiny intro into this complex subject, not suited for this board. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 01:18
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I think the OP's point is only relevant when dealing with end clients | Nov 4, 2016 |
Most translation agencies will take it for granted that the writing of an non-native speaker cannot be a match in quality of that by a native speaker. They have been conditioned by the writings of non-native speakers to such an extent that they would think the inferior quality of their writing is just normal and natural.
On the other hand, an end client would immediately judge your translation ability as poor if you write your proposal to a client in your second language. This is si... See more Most translation agencies will take it for granted that the writing of an non-native speaker cannot be a match in quality of that by a native speaker. They have been conditioned by the writings of non-native speakers to such an extent that they would think the inferior quality of their writing is just normal and natural.
On the other hand, an end client would immediately judge your translation ability as poor if you write your proposal to a client in your second language. This is simply because most end clients don't understand why the writings written by native and nonnative speakers should be different.
This is why most efforts in approaching a source language market client would go fruitless. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Preston Decker
United States
Local time: 01:18
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Annamaria Amik wrote: Preston Decker wrote:
So I'm a bit confused, are you saying that you should be able to write at a near-native level (by which I mean something along the order of 2-3 grammatical mistakes every 1000 words) in your second language to be a translator? If so, 99% of the members on Proz would be instantly disqualified. The hallmark of a good translator is their ability to understand written material in their second language, not write it.
I have mixed feelings about this proposal. I think a translator should be able to write in her source language, even with the typical non-native mistakes, at a quality that shouldn't raise questions about her proficiency in her native language. I don't see how someone who masters a source language could grossly misuse expressions or grossly misspell words in e-mails, in the languages I know. For example, a weird but clear phrase here and there, wrong prepositions, misplaced punctuation marks - I think these things wouldn't make me doubt a translator's ability in her native language.
I suppose we're imaging things differently, which perhaps is naive of me. As I imagined things, this would be a group of experts sharing and assisting each other with the correction of minor mistakes and stylistic choices rather than wholesale rewrites for people with no clue what they're doing. My theory is that the minor mistakes we make when writing in our non-native languages matter a great deal more than many think when viewed by potential clients. I also know that the year my Chinese writing improved the most was the year directly before I began translating on a more or less full-time basis. During that year I was working for a company in Beijing, writing emails to clients in Chinese every day AND getting feedback from coworkers and managers on these, which was tremendously helpful/effective.
But as Lingua 5b suggested, perhaps this would all just be too complicated and easy to abuse by those not serious about their craft.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 10:27 GMT]
| | | | Preston Decker
United States
Local time: 01:18
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Lingua 5B wrote:
3) if there is an exchange of service involved both sides will do it equally well?
Yes, that would be the crux of the whole thing (because it would all depend on free exchange), and it's possible I'm trusting too much in the good side of people...
[Edited at 2016-11-04 10:27 GMT]
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| Impracticable in live business | Nov 4, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
My theory is that the minor mistakes we make when writing in our non-native languages matter a great more than many think when viewed by potential clients.
I do welcome the idea of feedback from natives on forum posts, where promptness is not that important.
But how would this be feasible in the case of job inquiries? I make a point of replying to all inquiries within 5-10 minutes during business hours. How could a native speaker help me correct the minor mistakes within such a short time frame? The only way this could be done, in my opinion, would be through an instant messaging kind of platform here on ProZ, where the volunteer native proofreaders could log in when they are available for giving feedback immediately.
We could compile lists of typical mistakes made by non-natives in correspondence, though.
I agree with jyuan_us. Even if we found a way to make this work, the real benefits would be limited to our correspondence with end clients - who are native in the translator's non-native source language. And then there are the cases where the common language used for communication is not the native language of either of the parties (even with end clients)...
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:18
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| You mean, voluntary submission to grammar naz^H^H^Hpolice? | Nov 4, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
I'm wondering if Proz might be able to help members with this problem--how about a site feature that allows members to sign up for a mutual critique program?
Basically you could start things with a private interface that allowed members to correct grammatical mistakes in the forums posts of Proz members who were also signed up in this program.
Yes, that is a very good idea. And I like your proposal to link this feature to forum posts -- it makes sense to do that, because the forums often show how people think that they should actually write. Granted, there are some forum conventions that differ from standard language (particularly the use of brackets, ellipses, etc), but for the most part forum posts would form an excellent source for people's language usage.
My own vision for such a feature would look like this:
There should be three categories of users: critique givers, critique receivers, and anyone.
Users who wish their language to be checked should sign up as "critique receivers" (and they specify which for language they want their language usage to be critiqued). Then, whenever they post anything in a forum of that language, a link or button appears at the bottom of their post (or under their photo) saying "critique this post", with a tooltip like "This user invites anyone to comment on their language usage in this post".
The comments would appear in a private section on the critique receiver's profile page, and he can make those comments viewable to either all ProZ.com users (not a good idea!), to all critique receivers in that language, (and/or) to all registered critique givers (in that language), or himself only. The critique receiver also gets a notification whenever anyone made a comment in this feature.
Users who wish to actively help critique receivers should sign up as "critique givers". Being a registered critique giver means that (a) you can get notifications for e.g. whenever a critique receiver posted anything in a forum, with a link to that post and (b) you can see other critique givers' comments (if the critique receiver had made the comments viewable to all critique givers in that language). Users of this feature should also be able to set some notification subscription settings.
The correcter would get a certain number of Cake points ... which would entitle them to also receive corrections for their own posts.
I don't think that would work, because not everyone who wants to receive corrections are capable of making corrections. If that idea is implemented, it would encourage people with lesser language skills to participate in the role of a corrector. The whole point is to receive valuable comments from users who have higher skill, not potentially useful comments from other users with equally little skill.
Lingua 5B wrote:
I have yet to find someone trained and skilled to do it who would do it for free.
I think the opposite, in fact. For example, the only reasons why I refrain from correcting people's errors in the forums are because (a) it is considered bad netiquette, (b) it would be annoying to other readers, and (c) the person would likely not appreciate it. But if there was a system that allowed me to play grammar police (and encourages it, and allows for peer review), then I would gladly participate.
After all, I also participate in the forums, and no-one's paying me. I also participate in KudoZ-like activities, and on most platforms there are no "rewards" for doing so (ProZ.com's system is one exception).
[Edited at 2016-11-04 10:46 GMT]
| | | | | Exceptions prove the rule | Nov 4, 2016 |
Andy Watkinson wrote:
I must admit that my reaction to this is simply that anyone purporting to translate out of language X should be able to write it almost as well as their target language at the very least.
How can you possibly make actual mistakes writing in a language you're supposed to master?
Passive and active skills don't necessarily go together.
For example, I translate (brilliantly) from Danish, yet I cannot speak or write it and understand not a word when they speak.
I know I'm a special case (in so many ways) but plenty of other translators will also be special cases.
I must say, though, that if I wanted my CV or website or emails vetted, ProZ would not be the first place I turn to...
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 07:18
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
My writing skills in my source languages leave a lot to desire. I'm not under the impression that my clients (mostly agencies) feel that this makes me a less competent translator, though. I can imagine that this may be different with non-LSP clients, as jyuan_us suggests.
I think that Preston's suggestion is a great idea, and Samuel's ideas sound very sensible. I could certainly profit a lot from this, and I'd be happy to contribute in my target language.
[Edit... See more My writing skills in my source languages leave a lot to desire. I'm not under the impression that my clients (mostly agencies) feel that this makes me a less competent translator, though. I can imagine that this may be different with non-LSP clients, as jyuan_us suggests.
I think that Preston's suggestion is a great idea, and Samuel's ideas sound very sensible. I could certainly profit a lot from this, and I'd be happy to contribute in my target language.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 10:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:18
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| *Some* insight possible, but that's not enough. | Nov 4, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote: Lingua 5B wrote:
3) if there is an exchange of service involved both sides will do it equally well?
Yes, that would be the crux of the whole thing (because it would all depend on free exchange), and it's possible I'm trusting too much in the good side of people... [Edited at 2016-11-04 10:27 GMT]
You can create a piece in Chinese, and then Chinese colleagues can indicate an error or two for you to consider (wouldn't take much of their time). It's still something, but I'm afraid not enough to move your progress further significantly.
Say if you have a group of students and you want to correct their 1) grammar tests and 2) essays/papers/writing pieces. No. 1 you can probably do in one day, as it's most likely multiple choice questions. No. 2 will take you at least 2 weeks (minimum).
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:18
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Interesting proposition | Nov 4, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Are you aware that correcting someone's syntax and writing flow is a complex task?
...
I understand what you're saying, but I think you're over-thinking the goal that I believe Preston has in mind. I don't see any particular "technical" problem in this.
- We're all (supposedly) language professionals so we have rather more insight than an average native speaker
- Many of us are translation/editing professionals who are trained and/or experienced precisely in this area
- Many of us are also professional language teachers
- There's no aim of bringing a beginner up to a native-equivalent level; simply polishing texts in a professional translator's source language (which by definition should be pretty good) so that they perform better for communication, not for financial gain.
I could certainly help fellow translators with their English texts, in fact I often do. However, there's one big hurdle that Lingua 5B mentions:
I have yet to find someone trained and skilled to do it who would do it for free.
I know you suggest a tit-for-tat arrangement, Preston, but I think it's unlikely to work in practice. I, for example, do communicate with clients quite regularly in French, and I sometimes compose Spanish texts as input to forums, which my Spanish teacher assures me are terrible  , but the volume isn't great because English is used far more often - by everybody. OTOH, many out-of-English translators produce vast volumes of imperfect but understandable English. The scales aren't going to balance.
Maybe I'll be willing to help for free once I retire (and I'm already 61 so maybe not long), as long as the texts aren't going to be used for financial gain, but not before.
| | | | Preston Decker
United States
Local time: 01:18
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | A few minutes of time | Nov 4, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Preston Decker wrote: Lingua 5B wrote:
3) if there is an exchange of service involved both sides will do it equally well?
Yes, that would be the crux of the whole thing (because it would all depend on free exchange), and it's possible I'm trusting too much in the good side of people... [Edited at 2016-11-04 10:27 GMT] You can create a piece in Chinese, and then Chinese colleagues can indicate an error or two for you to consider (wouldn't take much of their time). It's still something, but I'm afraid not enough to move your progress further significantly. Say if you have a group of students and you want to correct their 1) grammar tests and 2) essays/papers/writing pieces. No. 1 you can probably do in one day, as it's most likely multiple choice questions. No. 2 will take you at least 2 weeks (minimum).
The idea of the system would be something much closer to your first paragraph than the second--I'm imagining that people would be willing to take a minute or two of their time to make a few suggestions/corrections in return for similar service in the future, not provide wholesale markups like you'd get for a school essay.
Samuel: Yes, yes, and yes. Your vision and mine are essentially the same, and you probably explained this in a clearer fashion. The "Cake Points" idea was an attempt to ensure that people both give and receive, but there may be other ways of accomplishing this.
Annamaria: If this ever expanded beyond forum posts I would think the idea would not be to give instantaneous help for emails not yet sent, but rather to receive feedback on emails already sent (with client identifying information removed of course), so as to hopefully improve future quotes.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 11:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-11-04 11:27 GMT]
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