| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Add a feature to allow us to correct writing in non-native languages? Thread poster: Preston Decker
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Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 05:12
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Yes, we are all language professionals but... | Nov 4, 2016 |
each time I saw someone correcting someone's English on the forum (without being asked to do so), it was just that - a correction. That's not enough for someone to learn or improve their skills. It must be elaborated and explained so the person can understand the type of error, why it happened, etc. Haven't seen this type of constructive corrections on ProZ, or very rarely.
I don't think I'm overthinking it and I will tell you why details are important. You may write a 1k piece and ... See more each time I saw someone correcting someone's English on the forum (without being asked to do so), it was just that - a correction. That's not enough for someone to learn or improve their skills. It must be elaborated and explained so the person can understand the type of error, why it happened, etc. Haven't seen this type of constructive corrections on ProZ, or very rarely.
I don't think I'm overthinking it and I will tell you why details are important. You may write a 1k piece and make only 1 non-native error for a client to disqualify you (commonly a direct client).
Regarding the comments about interacting with agencies, a great deal of PMs communicate in bad or average English with errors, so how can they tell a difference? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Samuel's suggestion deserves serious consideration | Nov 4, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
There should be three categories of users: critique givers, critique receivers, and anyone.
Users who wish their language to be checked should sign up as "critique receivers" (and they specify which for language they want their language usage to be critiqued). Then, whenever they post anything in a forum of that language, a link or button appears at the bottom of their post (or under their photo) saying "critique this post", with a tooltip like "This user invites anyone to comment on their language usage in this post".
The comments would appear in a private section on the critique receiver's profile page, and he can make those comments viewable to either all ProZ.com users (not a good idea!), to all critique receivers in that language, (and/or) to all registered critique givers (in that language), or himself only. The critique receiver also gets a notification whenever anyone made a comment in this feature.
Excellent suggestion, Samuel! I think this deserves serious consideration by the site staff.
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Samuel Murray wrote:
There should be three categories of users: critique givers, critique receivers, and anyone.
Users who wish their language to be checked should sign up as "critique receivers" (and they specify which for language they want their language usage to be critiqued). Then, whenever they post anything in a forum of that language, a link or button appears at the bottom of their post (or under their photo) saying "critique this post", with a tooltip like "This user invites anyone to comment on their language usage in this post".
The comments would appear in a private section on the critique receiver's profile page, and he can make those comments viewable to either all ProZ.com users (not a good idea!), to all critique receivers in that language, (and/or) to all registered critique givers (in that language), or himself only. The critique receiver also gets a notification whenever anyone made a comment in this feature.
Users who wish to actively help critique receivers should sign up as "critique givers". Being a registered critique giver means that (a) you can get notifications for e.g. whenever a critique receiver posted anything in a forum, with a link to that post and (b) you can see other critique givers' comments (if the critique receiver had made the comments viewable to all critique givers in that language). Users of this feature should also be able to set some notification subscription settings.
This is something I'd like to see implemented and that IMO could actually add (user-generated) value to the site (unlike many of the changes that have been recently imposed...)
| | | | Preston Decker
United States
Local time: 23:12
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
I know you suggest a tit-for-tat arrangement, Preston, but I think it's unlikely to work in practice. I, for example, do communicate with clients quite regularly in French, and I sometimes compose Spanish texts as input to forums, which my Spanish teacher assures me are terrible  , but the volume isn't great because English is used far more often - by everybody. OTOH, many out-of-English translators produce vast volumes of imperfect but understandable English. The scales aren't going to balance.
A good point Sheila, but I suppose the system wouldn't have to be perfectly balanced to provide some benefit?
To all those who doubt that a free exchange like this could work, the more I think about it, I think this could work well not only because of human decency and a desire to help others, but also because of the general tendency of translators to dislike grammatical mistakes--I'm betting there are certain people out there (and I might be one of them) who would derive a bit of pleasure out of correcting a few English posts, especially if it was also going to a good cause. And I do know that I would appreciate anyone who corrected my Chinese posts, even if it would be a bit humbling.
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 23:12
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Preston Decker wrote: Andy Watkinson wrote:
I must admit that my reaction to this is simply that anyone purporting to translate out of language X should be able to write it almost as well as their target language at the very least.
How can you possibly make actual mistakes writing in a language you're supposed to master?
Somewhat immodestly, I believe I can write Spanish rather better than a majority of Spaniards, but for the simple reason they haven't been studying it for the past 49 years and why should they?
It's not their job.
[Edited at 2016-11-04 04:23 GMT] So I'm a bit confused, are you saying that you should be able to write at a near-native level (by which I mean something along the order of 2-3 grammatical mistakes every 1000 words) in your second language to be a translator? If so, 99% of the members on Proz would be instantly disqualified. The hallmark of a good translator is their ability to understand written material in their second language, not write it. With that said, one of the secondary marks of a good translator is the desire to continue mastering all aspects of their second language, and that would be the point of this feature. [Edited at 2016-11-04 04:45 GMT] [Edited at 2016-11-04 04:56 GMT] Edit: As I wrote above, despite the fact that I do not think one's writing ability in a non-native language is necessarily linked to translation ability (although it can be), Andy's response and my own reaction when reading poorly written English emails I receive prove my point that improving one's writing skills in a non-native language is vital to business success. [Edited at 2016-11-04 05:07 GMT]
If you were implying that 99% of the members on Proz write poorly in their second language (Let's assume English is their second language), then almost every one of them does not write ideally in English. Then, why bother with making the change? Your proposed "added-on" feature will increase the cost of the translators, which will not necessarily be compensated by the translation buyers.
[Edited at 2016-11-06 06:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-11-06 07:10 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 23:12
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| My another 2 cents. | Nov 6, 2016 |
Your proposed "added-on" feature will actually add another battle ground in which we the translators will have to compete with each other. We are already facing a harsh completion overall, but we would have to struggle in another "layer" of competition, i.e., business writing, if your proposal would be materialized.
[Edited at 2016-11-06 06:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-11-06 07:11 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 23:12
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| How do the academics handing writing in their second language? | Nov 6, 2016 |
In the USA, hundreds of thousands of teaching staff are teaching in their second language (English). Do you think they all can write natively in English? If not, are they magicians who have a way to turn their writings into ones that feel like written by native English speakers? Still if not, do you think they must use editors to help them with their writing?
[Edited at 2016-11-06 06:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-11-06 07:12 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 23:12
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I think business correspondences are varied in their quality | Nov 6, 2016 |
Most professional translators, although not writing perfectly, write in an acceptable way. I think having an ability of writing acceptably is good enough for business purposes. An acceptable piece of business writing might contain some minor grammatical errors or have a feel of clumsiness, but it will not lead to any misunderstanding.
I also think writing in an acceptable way is a minimum requirement for survival in our industry. If someone cannot even write in an acceptable way, h... See more Most professional translators, although not writing perfectly, write in an acceptable way. I think having an ability of writing acceptably is good enough for business purposes. An acceptable piece of business writing might contain some minor grammatical errors or have a feel of clumsiness, but it will not lead to any misunderstanding.
I also think writing in an acceptable way is a minimum requirement for survival in our industry. If someone cannot even write in an acceptable way, he or she should be pushed out of the business sooner or later. To these people, your proposed added-on feature will become a platform for their English learning, not one for professional help.
A professional translator, if occasionally stuck in their wording, can always use the English-English Kudoz to ask a question.
[Edited at 2016-11-06 06:51 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-11-06 07:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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