| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | So why doesnt Proz allow users to comment about price dumpers? Thread poster: sdvplatt
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 17:53
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| My title should summarize my main point | Sep 9, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Professionals don't do that because it doesn't make any sense to work for a pittance if what you have to sell is worth much more.
To say "I will not sell what I have to sell for less than it is worth" is only a viable option if you are also selling other things from which to get an income, or if your income does not depend on selling that which you're trying to sell. It is not unprofessional to adjust your sale price to the market, and to refuse to do so is certainly not the epitome of "professional".
But eventually, no one will be left to compete on bottom rates than the bottom feeders - who by the way support the system by their paid membership.
This is an interesting prediction, but... ProZ.com has existed for many years, and rates have been "pushing" downwards for all of those years, and your prediction hasn't come true yet. What will be so different about the next 5 years, in your opinion?
The greater the number of translators is bidding on the same job, the better for you.
This has a ring of truth to it. But there is an upper limit, and I think seasoned job posters will have learnt that unless you limit your job post to very specific translators, you end up with too many responses (and too many low-quality responses). So a truer truth would be "the greater the number of clients who find a suitable translator quickly, the better for you".
| | | | | Up is the way | Sep 9, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
But eventually, no one will be left to compete on bottom rates than the bottom feeders - who by the way support the system by their paid membership. This is an interesting prediction, but... ProZ.com has existed for many years, and rates have been "pushing" downwards for all of those years, and your prediction hasn't come true yet. What will be so different about the next 5 years, in your opinion?
More outsourcers and translators than ever coming into the market trying to undercut who's already in it. There will be a bottoming-out when it gets harder and harder for all of them to exist. At least that's my hope. Combined with the people finding out ever faster that at those rates, you can't sustain a successful business or career. I think the only way out is up, by raising prices and emphasizing quality.
[Edited at 2015-09-09 18:14 GMT]
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
its a question of how much you feel the stock market is just a (state-engineered) racket.
Certainly the absolute prices have nothing to do with the intrinsic worth of the stock (over time) since fiat currencies are not backed up by anything you can use to make comparisons with.
To establish a good idea of the fair value of a unit of work (this is not price)
* what are the ongoing costs
* how many hours does one actually work (not just words- including the whole tr... See more its a question of how much you feel the stock market is just a (state-engineered) racket.
Certainly the absolute prices have nothing to do with the intrinsic worth of the stock (over time) since fiat currencies are not backed up by anything you can use to make comparisons with.
To establish a good idea of the fair value of a unit of work (this is not price)
* what are the ongoing costs
* how many hours does one actually work (not just words- including the whole translation cycle)
* what capital investment to become a translator (education) over time --> 0
* level of quality vis-a-vis others in the marketplace- this is hard. A good way to test this is to subcontract work oneself in the same language combination.
* ...
Better stats on the competition would help but also if more translators were to form communities, they would have a better appreciation of their 'level' and who they are competing against.
Barriers to entry:
Its not a job you can just come off a boat (or a train) and start doing even if everyone has the Internet:
* Prop tools such as Trados
* Needs far more than just a passing knowledge of a 2nd language
* Min 2-3 years of experience to get the pace right (to make money)
However, this changes every year with new technology.
Watch if the status of reviewer elevates. It can be more efficient to hire an expert in each combination and have them correct sub-standard work esp. as much of the quality is wrapped up in memories/termbases..
Certainly if anyone feels they are an expert and would like to work for me ....:)
Dan Lucas wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
my argument was yes you can get this information quickly what is its inherent worth?
Similar to what I mean about disclosing information to get a better idea of the real price of a unit of translation work. What is the inherent worth of the price of a company's stock? I suppose that depends on the importance one ascribes to thousands of investors thinking about a company's product portfolio, balance sheet, cash flows, geographical reach, competitive landscape etc and then - this being what separates them from armchair experts - expressing that opinion in the price they are prepared to pay for a company's stock. Sure, unless you believe in the strong theory of market efficiency - and no investment professional does - the share price is certainly not a perfect indicator of a company's worth. But it's better than anything else available. We could forget about centralised exchanges and go back to the days of setting prices in coffee houses as they did in the 17th century. Such a system would give a far less complete and useful picture of the product being sold than the exchanges we have today. The primary medium of communication in the translation industry - email - is solidly 21st century, but the pricing of translation services follows the "coffee house" model of the late 17th century. It's all one-to-one price negotiation with no clear view of how others price similar products. Regards Dan ▲ Collapse
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | well you would say that | Sep 9, 2015 |
as a Site Staff member
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
This is simply not true. ProZ.com's main source of income is the membership paid by the translators and, because of this model (and its mission statement), ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers. A majority of the jobs passed at ProZ.com are by direct (and private) contact between outsourcer and translators, mainly through the translators profiles. Many jobs are shared by means of networking among colleagues. This model helps distribute workloads and goes against the feast-or-famine scenario, so common in our profession. Jobs posted in the site are just another channel for the passing of work, and several actions have been adopted to sustain the principle that each translator should be the one deciding how much to charge for their services:
- A translator rates calculator is available.
- A set of modifications in the job posting policies, worked out with translators based on a 2010 petition. This includes the ability of translators to opt for not seeing budget information in published jobs, and to not receiving notifications of jobs below their minimum rates.
- Also, outsourcers are notified when they post a job with rated much lower that the average rates reported by the translators.
- Offers made by translators in response to posted jobs are invisible to other translators, thus preventing any form of "reverse auction"
Regards, Enrique
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sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | is this a tedious slanging match too? | Sep 9, 2015 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
... is that nobody sees any good reason to go above it. If you think translators are accepting a given rate, then why would you offer twice as much?
Who said anything about 2x?
Besides, as Proz.com staff repeatedly point out, no one is obliged to accept the rates offered by clients. If we all offer to do the job for about twice the rate some are offering, you don't see that on the jobs board.
Dont accept the prices, dont get the work
If the outsourcer makes no mention of rates and waits to see what bidders ask for, you do not see what they finally agree on, but it may be quite a respectable rate.
or not
I admit, I have very rarely bid for jobs that were openly posted on this site, and as far as I remember, I only ever got one, but that WAS paid for at a very satisfactory rate, at the high end, even for me in Scandinavia.
There you go
The well-paid jobs that come through this site are often invisible to all but a few translators, selected by the outsourcer and contacted directly.
Not true in my experience
Of course, some jobs coming that way are low offers too, but the problem is that a far higher precentage of the low-paid jobs will be visible than the better-paid ones.
No
I don't start up my Trados for less than 0.12 Euros a word, and some of my clients pay more. I always have plenty of work to do, largely from repeat clients, but many found me through this site or through colleagues on this site.
I am not the only one, and that is why a lot of members stay here and pay for membership year after year. Once you have worked up a suitable volume of work, there are all the other benefits...
Law of diminishing returns. I question whether it will be worth continuing with soon.
There are other ways to get work by focussing on a niche market and doing less for more
Some time ago I joined the LinkedIn naming and shaming group. In spite of the moderator, there are some quite tedious slanging matches, and I would hate to see Proz.com going the same way.
see title
There is no simple answer, but directly naming individual outsourcers is not the solution IMHO.
| | | | | Ad-hominem fallacy at work | Sep 10, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
well you would say that as a Site Staff member Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
This is simply not true. ProZ.com's main source of income is the membership paid by the translators and, because of this model (and its mission statement), ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers. A majority of the jobs passed at ProZ.com are by direct (and private) contact between outsourcer and translators, mainly through the translators profiles. Many jobs are shared by means of networking among colleagues. This model helps distribute workloads and goes against the feast-or-famine scenario, so common in our profession. Jobs posted in the site are just another channel for the passing of work, and several actions have been adopted to sustain the principle that each translator should be the one deciding how much to charge for their services:
- A translator rates calculator is available.
- A set of modifications in the job posting policies, worked out with translators based on a 2010 petition. This includes the ability of translators to opt for not seeing budget information in published jobs, and to not receiving notifications of jobs below their minimum rates.
- Also, outsourcers are notified when they post a job with rated much lower that the average rates reported by the translators.
- Offers made by translators in response to posted jobs are invisible to other translators, thus preventing any form of "reverse auction"
Regards, Enrique
This is a clear example of the ad-hominem fallacy, responding to arguments by focusing on the persons who answers, rather than addressing the content of their arguments.
Enrique
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | No sir you are wrong | Sep 10, 2015 |
from wikipedia (had to do this quick)
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than addressing the content of their arguments. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized
******
It calls your objectivity into... See more from wikipedia (had to do this quick)
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than addressing the content of their arguments. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized
******
It calls your objectivity into question not your character as such I dont even know who you are-
it is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
well you would say that as a Site Staff member Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
This is simply not true. ProZ.com's main source of income is the membership paid by the translators and, because of this model (and its mission statement), ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers. A majority of the jobs passed at ProZ.com are by direct (and private) contact between outsourcer and translators, mainly through the translators profiles. Many jobs are shared by means of networking among colleagues. This model helps distribute workloads and goes against the feast-or-famine scenario, so common in our profession. Jobs posted in the site are just another channel for the passing of work, and several actions have been adopted to sustain the principle that each translator should be the one deciding how much to charge for their services:
- A translator rates calculator is available.
- A set of modifications in the job posting policies, worked out with translators based on a 2010 petition. This includes the ability of translators to opt for not seeing budget information in published jobs, and to not receiving notifications of jobs below their minimum rates.
- Also, outsourcers are notified when they post a job with rated much lower that the average rates reported by the translators.
- Offers made by translators in response to posted jobs are invisible to other translators, thus preventing any form of "reverse auction"
Regards, Enrique This is a clear example of the ad-hominem fallacy, responding to arguments by focusing on the persons who answers, rather than addressing the content of their arguments. Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| I'm not going to try to disprove a conspiracy theory... | Sep 10, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
its a question of how much you feel the stock market is just a (state-engineered) racket.
Having actually worked in the stock market it seemed to me that the participants and the (state-backed) regulators were in opposition, rather than in cahoots, and that regulatory scrutiny was intense. But I probably only think that because that's what the Illuminati want me to think, right?
If you want to discuss how fiat money is the root of all evil, I suggest you stick with Seeking Alpha rather than ProZ.
Regards
Dan
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:53
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
deutschenglisch wrote:
It calls your objectivity into question not your character.
True.
It is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers.
Also true.
But: you can still evaluate the actual things that he says. And you didn't do that.
If you think that any of his statements are doubtful, say so specifically (and tell us why you think so) -- don't just quote his entire post along with a one-line comment. In my opinion, his post contained mostly useful, factual information. He also backed up his opinion with arguments and statements. If you believe that his arguments are invalid or that his statements are not plausible, say so, and say specifically which and how.
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | please refer to my earlier threads | Sep 10, 2015 |
Ive done enough of this already.
Its been a useful exercise - thanks to everyone who took the time to engage!
Samuel Murray wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
It calls your objectivity into question not your character. True. It is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers. Also true. But: you can still evaluate the actual things that he says. And you didn't do that. If you think that any of his statements are doubtful, say so specifically (and tell us why you think so) -- don't just quote his entire post along with a one-line comment. In my opinion, his post contained mostly useful, factual information. He also backed up his opinion with arguments and statements. If you believe that his arguments are invalid or that his statements are not plausible, say so, and say specifically which and how.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:53
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| | Yes, ad-hominem fallacy all the way | Sep 10, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
from wikipedia (had to do this quick)
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than addressing the content of their arguments. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized
******
It calls your objectivity into question not your character as such I dont even know who you are-
it is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers.
I would say, based on my free will and under no pressure from ProZ.com's owner, that when you write:
"it is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers."
... you are dismissing my argument on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about my person (that I am not free to comment on policies I have helped develop in almost 10 years of working at ProZ.com).
You start a thread asking a question about ProZ.com's policies.
- If nobody from staff answered, you could have complained about a lack of response.
- When someone from staff replies, you dismiss the replay because staff is suspect of lack of freedom.
Puzzling!
Regards,
Enrique
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Enrique Cavalitto wrote: I would say, based on my free will and under no pressure from ProZ.com's owner, that when you write: "it is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers." ... you are dismissing my argument on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about my person (that I am not free to comment on policies I have helped develop in almost 10 years of working at ProZ.com). You start a thread asking a question about ProZ.com's policies. - If nobody from staff answered, you could have complained about a lack of response.
- When someone from staff replies, you dismiss the replay because staff is suspect of lack of freedom.
Puzzling! Regards, Enrique
Hi Enrique,
Because I took the time and discussed some of the points you made, could you briefly comment on it.
Thank you,
Bernhard
[Edited at 2015-09-10 13:39 GMT]
| | | | | Who is to blame? | Sep 10, 2015 |
Bernhard's points and thoughts are really interesting, they've made me think a lot about previous debates and comments I've heard from numerous experienced colleagues about ProZ and other professional networks.
However, I think WE ALL have built this system.
The way the market works today is taking rates downwards, and the 'price dumpers' get the most benefit from ProZ because they get more clients and projects as opposed to translators who expect a fair rate. That is c... See more Bernhard's points and thoughts are really interesting, they've made me think a lot about previous debates and comments I've heard from numerous experienced colleagues about ProZ and other professional networks.
However, I think WE ALL have built this system.
The way the market works today is taking rates downwards, and the 'price dumpers' get the most benefit from ProZ because they get more clients and projects as opposed to translators who expect a fair rate. That is clear...
...Of course, assuming you can call it a 'benefit', given that you need to work too many extra hours to make an average income that is hardly enough to make ends meet, no matter which country/economic context you live in.
Is that really what you dreamed about when you were studying to be a translator????(Just a though)
The people who offer too low rates just to get the job are what we call in Spanish "cortoplacistas" [something like 'short-term mindset' (?)], i.e. those who work just thinking of their immediate needs and not about how they hinder their senior/more experienced colleagues and even their own middle or long-term perspectives as professionals.
And this happens both inside and outside ProZ. It has little to do with ProZ' settings and tools but with the use its members give to those features. I'm not sure whether the staff can really do something to prevent this. ▲ Collapse
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:53
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | back to the policy | Sep 10, 2015 |
I wasnt allowed to flag a company for being a very low payer
EUR 0.05 in Germany for DE EN
i wanted to see proz be more transparent about these people.
If i want to hire a translator on this site, the minimum I am usually quoted is EUR 0.08/9 in Germany.
Why should i not be able to hire at EUR 0.04? Or lower.
Maybe ill hire someone for nothing because i am a non profit or purveyor of good will.
Does this not suggest something isnt... See more I wasnt allowed to flag a company for being a very low payer
EUR 0.05 in Germany for DE EN
i wanted to see proz be more transparent about these people.
If i want to hire a translator on this site, the minimum I am usually quoted is EUR 0.08/9 in Germany.
Why should i not be able to hire at EUR 0.04? Or lower.
Maybe ill hire someone for nothing because i am a non profit or purveyor of good will.
Does this not suggest something isnt quite right?
One aspect is people do not have enough information about what other people are working for (are they genuine native speakers, are they in a low cost country, ..)
I mentioned payscale or a custom development. It isnt likely to involve proz.
My impression if proz is what it is. I dont need to debate or justify it with a staff member.
You are a business- if the figures are up well done.
But when a company pretends to be something it isnt i have to wonder.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
from wikipedia (had to do this quick)
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than addressing the content of their arguments. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized
******
It calls your objectivity into question not your character as such I dont even know who you are-
it is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers.
I would say, based on my free will and under no pressure from ProZ.com's owner, that when you write: "it is reasonable to expect that in your role, you are not in a position to comment freely on matters which would imply criticism of your employers." ... you are dismissing my argument on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about my person (that I am not free to comment on policies I have helped develop in almost 10 years of working at ProZ.com). You start a thread asking a question about ProZ.com's policies. - If nobody from staff answered, you could have complained about a lack of response.
- When someone from staff replies, you dismiss the replay because staff is suspect of lack of freedom.
Puzzling! Regards, Enrique ▲ Collapse
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