| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | So why doesnt Proz allow users to comment about price dumpers? Thread poster: sdvplatt
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sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | to find out what Toyota is worth | Sep 8, 2015 |
you need to do more than look at the share price
I dont buy into any of this fear of the authorities at all.
There are existing sites with this purely informative function.
It has nothing to do with colluding on prices.
Dan Lucas wrote: James Sutherland wrote:
I don't know if Proz has an official explanation somewhere, but the obvious one would be the law: the US and EU both have strict laws prohibiting exchanging "price information", because that's how anti-competitive cartels form. Just to clarify James' point, exchanging pricing information is not in itself a problem. It is when information is used to artificially constrain or manipulate prices in some way that it becomes a serious issue. (Viz the Libor scandal.) For example, it's a simple fact that the investment industry depends on stock exchanges - I worked in the industry for nearly two decades - disseminating pricing information in a transparent fashion. Want to know what the market believes one share of Toyota is worth? You can find out in seconds. That's the power of exchanging price information. If information on translation pricing were disseminated in such a way that it served to increase the transparency of the market I doubt that any set of authorities would object. Indeed, they would probably welcome the initiative, because greater transparency usually means greater efficiency. On the other hand, swapping translation pricing information with the intention of controlling the price that customers pay would attract the attention of the authorities very quickly. Having worked alongside somebody who was informally investigated in relation to an abnormal move in the price of a certain stock (fortunately the authorities decided very early on that it was nothing to do with him) I can tell you that potential manipulators would not enjoy that scrutiny. Regards Dan
| | | | | Community rates | Sep 8, 2015 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
If information on translation pricing were disseminated in such a way that it served to increase the transparency of the market I doubt that any set of authorities would object. Indeed, they would probably welcome the initiative, because greater transparency usually means greater efficiency.
That's the Community Rates page on Proz, however there is NO incentive whatsoever for translators to add/update their inputs, nor any consideration to payment terms (as interest rates MAY vary sharply from one country to another).
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Dan Lucas wrote:
If information on translation pricing were disseminated in such a way that it served to increase the transparency of the market I doubt that any set of authorities would object. Indeed, they would probably welcome the initiative, because greater transparency usually means greater efficiency. That's the Community Rates page on Proz, however there is NO incentive whatsoever for translators to add/update their inputs, nor any consideration to payment terms (as interest rates MAY vary sharply from one country to another).
credit where its due
DE EN standard €0.11/wd
Said Cologne based agency t*d offering 0.05 (also noted by second translator posting on BB)
Big difference. Worth flagging up if I was allowed to do so by the mods.
| | | | | ProZ.com's interests are in line with the translators' | Sep 8, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
This is simply not true.
ProZ.com's main source of income is the membership paid by the translators and, because of this model (and its mission statement), ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers.
A majority of the jobs passed at ProZ.com are by direct (and private) contact between outsourcer and translators, mainly through the translators profiles.
Many jobs are shared by means of networking among colleagues. This model helps distribute workloads and goes against the feast-or-famine scenario, so common in our profession.
Jobs posted in the site are just another channel for the passing of work, and several actions have been adopted to sustain the principle that each translator should be the one deciding how much to charge for their services:
- A translator rates calculator is available.
- A set of modifications in the job posting policies, worked out with translators based on a 2010 petition. This includes the ability of translators to opt for not seeing budget information in published jobs, and to not receiving notifications of jobs below their minimum rates.
- Also, outsourcers are notified when they post a job with rated much lower that the average rates reported by the translators.
- Offers made by translators in response to posted jobs are invisible to other translators, thus preventing any form of "reverse auction"
Regards,
Enrique
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| The trouble with a minimum rate... | Sep 8, 2015 |
... is that nobody sees any good reason to go above it. If you think translators are accepting a given rate, then why would you offer twice as much?
Besides, as Proz.com staff repeatedly point out, no one is obliged to accept the rates offered by clients. If we all offer to do the job for about twice the rate some are offering, you don't see that on the jobs board.
If the outsourcer makes no mention of rates and waits to see what bidders ask for, you do not se... See more ... is that nobody sees any good reason to go above it. If you think translators are accepting a given rate, then why would you offer twice as much?
Besides, as Proz.com staff repeatedly point out, no one is obliged to accept the rates offered by clients. If we all offer to do the job for about twice the rate some are offering, you don't see that on the jobs board.
If the outsourcer makes no mention of rates and waits to see what bidders ask for, you do not see what they finally agree on, but it may be quite a respectable rate.
I admit, I have very rarely bid for jobs that were openly posted on this site, and as far as I remember, I only ever got one, but that WAS paid for at a very satisfactory rate, at the high end, even for me in Scandinavia.
The well-paid jobs that come through this site are often invisible to all but a few translators, selected by the outsourcer and contacted directly.
Of course, some jobs coming that way are low offers too, but the problem is that a far higher precentage of the low-paid jobs will be visible than the better-paid ones.
I don't start up my Trados for less than 0.12 Euros a word, and some of my clients pay more. I always have plenty of work to do, largely from repeat clients, but many found me through this site or through colleagues on this site.
I am not the only one, and that is why a lot of members stay here and pay for membership year after year. Once you have worked up a suitable volume of work, there are all the other benefits...
Some time ago I joined the LinkedIn naming and shaming group. In spite of the moderator, there are some quite tedious slanging matches, and I would hate to see Proz.com going the same way.
There is no simple answer, but directly naming individual outsourcers is not the solution IMHO. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 08:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: That's the Community Rates page on Proz. However there is NO incentive whatsoever for translators to add/update their inputs, nor any consideration to payment terms (as interest rates MAY vary sharply from one country to another).
I agree, it should perhaps be suggested that the community rates be calculated only from profiles that have been updated in the past year or two. I also agree with your point about payment terms, but that's a problem that is to be expected if you're trying to calculate averages, and one can't take into account all kinds of differences (for example, I have different rates for different geographical regions, but I think very few translators have that). Still, I would like to see different rates in different currencies in the Community Rates, because market rate conversion is not the same as currency conversion (for example, my EUR rate is one cent more expensive than my USD rate converted to EUR).
The rates statistics of the coffee cup translators' portal whose name we're not allowed to mention, give not only average rates but also a bell curve to show at what point rates drop off.
deutschenglisch wrote:
DE EN standard €0.11/wd
Said Cologne based agency t*d offering 0.05
Note that the Community Rates show what rates translators said that they "would like" to get, and not the rates that they actually charge.
Christine Andersen wrote:
Besides, as Proz.com staff repeatedly point out, no one is obliged to accept the rates offered by clients. If we all offer to do the job for about twice the rate some are offering, you don't see that on the jobs board.
That is true. Many agencies will offer a low rate as the "start of negotiations", but will increase it to meet the translator's counter-offer half-way.
[Edited at 2015-09-08 14:42 GMT]
| | | | | Some important points here | Sep 8, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: That's the Community Rates page on Proz. However there is NO incentive whatsoever for translators to add/update their inputs, nor any consideration to payment terms (as interest rates MAY vary sharply from one country to another). I agree, it should perhaps be suggested that the community rates be calculated only from profiles that have been updated in the past year or two. I also agree with your point about payment terms, but that's a problem that is to be expected if you're trying to calculate averages, and one can't take into account all kinds of differences (for example, I have different rates for different geographical regions, but I think very few translators have that). Still, I would like to see different rates in different currencies in the Community Rates, because market rate conversion is not the same as currency conversion (for example, my EUR rate is one cent more expensive than my USD rate converted to EUR).
This would be simple if the rates stated there were all COD.
The imbalance caused by payment terms comes up when the translator is located in a country like Brazil, Argentina, and a few others where the monthly interest rate is above 10%, and the client is in, e.g. North America or the EC, where the monthly interest rate is a fraction of 1%.
Since translations are not a commodity, hence it's not possible to buy them on credit and keep in stock for immediate delivery, an extended payment term here means that the translator will be lending money to fund his/her client's revolving capital. While this may mean peanuts in one country, it may be significant in another.
Taking an example, assuming that a client in the USA doesn't have cash at hand to pay a translator in Brazil, it is a sound business decision to get a local loan, in exchange for a discount, to pay COD. For a comparison, the interest rate (APR) per year on credit card debt in the USA is lower than the same figure per month in Brazil. AFAIK in Argentina it's even worse.
Furthermore, commercial banks - professional money lenders - compete against each other on which one offers loans at lower interest rates. Professional translators - supposedly amateurs in the financial services market - should hence adopt much higher interest rates than banks.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Note that the Community Rates show what rates translators said that they "would like" to get, and not the rates that they actually charge.
The actual minimum rates translators actually accept should be the "minimum" shown on the Proz Community Rates page. However an intelligent buyer should know that the figure there is an average including all those professionals that they'd immediately screen out on qualifications. Therefore it makes more sense, if the job involves some experience/skill/specialization, to get closer to the general average.
Christine Andersen wrote:
Besides, as Proz.com staff repeatedly point out, no one is obliged to accept the rates offered by clients. If we all offer to do the job for about twice the rate some are offering, you don't see that on the jobs board.
Samuel Murray wrote:
That is true. Many agencies will offer a low rate as the "start of negotiations", but will increase it to meet the translator's counter-offer half-way.
IMHO this is somewhat rare. Most agencies that start at a low rate seem committed to a low budget. They'll moan about cutting their share to raise just a bit, but never enough. The good agencies ask me "how much?" and then compare with the other options they have, including quality, service, timeliness, etc. - if any of these is desirable or relevant - in their comparison.
While I'll go down on the financial side if they make me a better offer on payment methods/term, I won't budge from my translation rates. According to my book, if I could lower my rates just because a prospect asked, this would make my initial cost estimate blatantly dishonest!. What if... the client didn't have the chutzpah to ask me about a discount? Would it make them less deserving? No!
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Something of a straw man argument | Sep 8, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
to find out what Toyota is worth
you need to do more than look at the share price
Arguably so, but I did not claim that the share price will tell you what Toyota is worth. One would hope that somebody who made a successful living as a stock analyst for 18 years (i.e. myself) would have a more nuanced understanding than that.
What I actually said was: "Want to know what the market believes one share of Toyota is worth?" And that is exactly what the share price tells you.
Regards
Dan
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sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Just not my experience | Sep 8, 2015 |
but thanks for your input
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
This is simply not true. ProZ.com's main source of income is the membership paid by the translators and, because of this model (and its mission statement), ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers. A majority of the jobs passed at ProZ.com are by direct (and private) contact between outsourcer and translators, mainly through the translators profiles. Many jobs are shared by means of networking among colleagues. This model helps distribute workloads and goes against the feast-or-famine scenario, so common in our profession. Jobs posted in the site are just another channel for the passing of work, and several actions have been adopted to sustain the principle that each translator should be the one deciding how much to charge for their services:
- A translator rates calculator is available.
- A set of modifications in the job posting policies, worked out with translators based on a 2010 petition. This includes the ability of translators to opt for not seeing budget information in published jobs, and to not receiving notifications of jobs below their minimum rates.
- Also, outsourcers are notified when they post a job with rated much lower that the average rates reported by the translators.
- Offers made by translators in response to posted jobs are invisible to other translators, thus preventing any form of "reverse auction"
Regards, Enrique
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dan Lucas wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
to find out what Toyota is worth
you need to do more than look at the share price Arguably so, but I did not claim that the share price will tell you what Toyota is worth. One would hope that somebody who made a successful living as a stock analyst for 18 years (i.e. myself) would have a more nuanced understanding than that. What I actually said was: "Want to know what the market believes one share of Toyota is worth?" And that is exactly what the share price tells you. Regards Dan
You wrote
For example, it's a simple fact that the investment industry depends on stock exchanges - I worked in the industry for nearly two decades - disseminating pricing information in a transparent fashion. Want to know what the market believes one share of Toyota is worth? You can find out in seconds. That's the power of exchanging price information.
my argument was yes you can get this information quickly what is its inherent worth?
Similar to what I mean about disclosing information to get a better idea of the real price of a unit of translation work.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Translation still has "coffee house" pricing | Sep 9, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
my argument was yes you can get this information quickly what is its inherent worth?
Similar to what I mean about disclosing information to get a better idea of the real price of a unit of translation work.
What is the inherent worth of the price of a company's stock?
I suppose that depends on the importance one ascribes to thousands of investors thinking about a company's product portfolio, balance sheet, cash flows, geographical reach, competitive landscape etc and then - this being what separates them from armchair experts - expressing that opinion in the price they are prepared to pay for a company's stock.
Sure, unless you believe in the strong theory of market efficiency - and no investment professional does - the share price is certainly not a perfect indicator of a company's worth. But it's better than anything else available.
We could forget about centralised exchanges and go back to the days of setting prices in coffee houses as they did in the 17th century. Such a system would give a far less complete and useful picture of the product being sold than the exchanges we have today.
The primary medium of communication in the translation industry - email - is solidly 21st century, but the pricing of translation services follows the "coffee house" model of the late 17th century. It's all one-to-one price negotiation with no clear view of how others price similar products.
Regards
Dan
| | | | | Professional organisations? | Sep 9, 2015 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
The primary medium of communication in the translation industry - email - is solidly 21st century, but the pricing of translation services follows the "coffee house" model of the late 17th century. It's all one-to-one price negotiation with no clear view of how others price similar products.
Could professional organisations like ITI, etc. be more specific and influential in advising or guiding members on what their service is worth?
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:42
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| No substitute for an exchange | Sep 9, 2015 |
Gabriele Demuth wrote:
Could professional organisations like ITI, etc. be more specific and influential in advising or guiding members on what their service is worth?
I don't know. More information from such organisations might help, but the problem with reporting prices is that nobody would know whether the reports were accurate or not.
By that I mean (a) we would not know whether the members of such organisations have reported their transactions accurately to the organisations and (b) we would not know whether the organisations have summarised and reported those transactions accurately.
To put it another way, I could post a list of transactions for day, week or month on this forum, but how would you know I am telling the truth? It's not as if you guys can see my bank account. I may have an incentive to falsely report transactions at high rates because that might influence the market to my benefit.
The users of an exchange (say, for example, a stock exchange) trust the prices displayed because the actual translactions go through the exchange itself. Orders from investors and traders to buy or sell a particular stock are matched by the exchange's system, cleared by a central counterparty then settled after the market close.
The price of a stock that you see on your screen is the result of the amalgamation of all the transactions at a specific point in time. It takes a lot of infrastructure to make that happen.
Regards
Dan
[Edited at 2015-09-09 12:43 GMT]
| | | | | Can you please explain this statement? | Sep 9, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote: Proz is not neutral Samuel Murray wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
So why doesn't ProZ.com allow users to comment about price dumpers? Because that would sour the relationship between ProZ.com and outsourcers. Remember, ProZ.com's success depends on having a good name as a "neutral" party in liaising between translators and clients.
How would you support your statement that ProZ.com is not neutral in this sense?
What do you mean by that?
Do you consider ProZ.com partial to translators or to outsourcers?
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | I see no problem with commenting on topics, so let me comment | Sep 9, 2015 |
Just my experience. That's all.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
This is simply not true. ProZ.com's main source of income is the membership paid by the translators and, because of this model (and its mission statement), ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers.
I think that the way things are set up, those who work for the least amount of money get the job (most of the jobs). I can't absolutely prove it but the rates sometimes posted with jobs on the job board are an indicator. It all comes with the territory. The more translators, the more quotes, on price. On price is the magic word. Quality, experience, ... not so much. Well, that's my experience anyway and I can only say that I did try the job board by offering quality for a fair (not an unreasonable) price, but there's no way I can ever get such a job unless I do it for rates that are even well below the community rates published on Proz.com. But that I can't do, for one because I would violate my own best practices and professional principles and sell for cheap all my skills and experience that I earned and paid for. Don't get me wrong, I am flexible with rates, and I am sure we all are, but no matter what else Proz.com offers as tools to help us, the sheer volume of people competing on offers affords the outsourcers the opportunity to pick the ones who work for very low rates. That's not helpful to me. If quality figures in this at all, I am sure there is still a plethora of people who charge inadequate prices for what they deliver. There is no way to change this as long as the system is set up the way it is, and any change would be more constrictive - say for a clientele and for translators who adhere to prices that are - for example - more in line with your community rates. This would change the dynamics and I am not sure if you would even consider this now.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
A majority of the jobs passed at ProZ.com are by direct (and private) contact between outsourcer and translators, mainly through the translators profiles.
As far as my experience with direct contacts coming through the directory/profile is concerned, it's true that these will generally speaking be better clients, but even here, I must say they are very few a year, fewer every year and that the expectations on price are getting lower.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
Many jobs are shared by means of networking among colleagues. This model helps distribute workloads and goes against the feast-or-famine scenario, so common in our profession.
Although I have shared and received jobs through colleagues, I wouldn't say they were/are many.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Jobs posted in the site are just another channel for the passing of work, and several actions have been adopted to sustain the principle that each translator should be the one deciding how much to charge for their services:
- A translator rates calculator is available.
- A set of modifications in the job posting policies, worked out with translators based on a 2010 petition. This includes the ability of translators to opt for not seeing budget information in published jobs, and to not receiving notifications of jobs below their minimum rates.
Although one doesn't get as annoyed when one doesn't see any inadequate/insulting budgets/rates, it doesn't mean that they don't exist or that these outsourcers are not choosing to get the cheapest translators, no matter what you yourself quote, see or not see. And not receiving jobs below one's minimum rates is a similarly ineffective tool against the existence and persistence of cheap jobs per se. You just filter yourself out of that cheap group. That doesn't mean you get better offers or clients, especially if those clients aren't even looking for you here.
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
Also, outsourcers are notified when they post a job with rated much lower that the average rates reported by the translators.
Offers made by translators in response to posted jobs are invisible to other translators, thus preventing any form of "reverse auction"
I like this feature (the first one) because it tells newcomers what is inadequate pricing, sort of. There could be a link to the community rate page for each of these jobs so that it is more obvious what one should charge at minimum.
But again, when one tries to counter something like that with a decent quote, it's very likely just a waste of time.
Not sure why we would even consider it an additional feature not revealing translators' quotes to other translators. Isn't that a basic feature to combat totally unprofessional behavior?
Couple of more thoughts:
As I wrote somewhere else, I only hope that the steady journey to the bottom as far as prices are concerned, is directly related to poor quality, because the lower you go, the more desperate or unprofessional it is to accept such jobs and still supply an excellent product. Professionals don't do that because it doesn't make any sense to work for a pittance if what you have to sell is worth much more.
So, yes, for a while longer we might see prices drop or continue to be low paid by outsourcers and accepted by translators on this and other portals. But eventually, no one will be left to compete on bottom rates than the bottom feeders - who by the way support the system by their paid membership. Come to think of it, anyone paying supports the status quo, don't they? If they all were disillusioned and stop paying, what would that do to your business? But yes, jobs are not your only feature.
Couple of other observations:
Posters or people looking through the directory don't have to pay to post a job or to find a translator- correct?
Translators always have to either be paying members to quote on jobs or have a better chance to be found in the directory because non-paying members are listed separately (except maybe the advanced search will bring them up as well prominently if they have plenty of KudoZ points, I am not sure). There's also the pay $1 per quote feature - but you can't quote on paying-members jobs.
I can see that membership is important to you, way more than how many jobs or how many good jobs will be posted on your portal- and maybe even how much is earned through ads on the site. The greater the number of translators is bidding on the same job, the better for you. In other words, you don't depend so much on the volume of jobs but on the number of paying members. Which doesn't seem to force outsourcers to any kind of good behavior because they are not asked to be paid members which could come with additional requirements. Wouldn't you agree you support any kind of poster this way more than any unpaid or paid member of Proz.com? I mean as far as the job system is concerned.
If the translator membership number is going up, it must be for a few reasons - ever more newcomers trying their luck, seasoned translators who see their membership as a marketing tool. As long as the number goes up, you must feel assured that you're doing the right thing - although that's only true if the number of paying members is your main indicator for success. But I hope you look towards the future and do consider input like this from people who are concerned about where this train is heading (for themselves, and the industry).
Problem for me has been that I don't get much out of all the job exchange at all. I rely on clients who I have worked with many times over many years, and new clients sometimes come by way of word of mouth or through contacts I initiate, either with new clients or clients I worked with before. It's very hard to find the good clients who are out there, don't get me wrong, they are out there, but I don't get to them through Proz.com - except with a tiny chance to once in a while find someone or be contacted by one. Somehow I feel that the huge number of outsourcers and translators who get on the Proz.com carrousel competing to the bottom hinder me in my efforts - but I feel that in some way, the pendulum will swing back my way because of it, but not on here though.
I am not going to argue about membership, everyone needs to know for him/herself what they get out of it.
But when it comes to judging which side Proz.com is on, you must admit that the way your system is set up - inviting more and more members but not being able to offer (indirectly of course) (many) good projects, you are in fact not able to do much for the professionals who would never work for bottom feeders' rates. Yes, there are warnings (the 80% warning) but it doesn't have any effect, most jobs posted expect to be carried out for very low and ever lower rates/prices (think of the new post-editing MT craze).
And yes, every translator decides what they charge. It seems most of them who get jobs through this portal charge very little because outsourcers choose them on price and the jobs posted are not getting any better. Would you agree that a paying membership would not do anything to change this system? As a matter of fact, it would only support the status quo.
So, nothing personal, and I understand you run your own business, but I just wanted to clarify which translators' side you are on, even only indirectly and even if you don't want it. I appreciate any changes that would improve prospects of professional translators on this portal who will not compete on ridiculous rates/prices but instead offer the quality of their work and fair prices. A perfect profile, experience, turn-around time and fairly priced quote is no guarantee to find a good project here as long as we have to compete on price and have no way to prevent newcomers or other people from continuing to work for bottom rates.
The worldwide presence of Proz.com does have an effect on our business, I am sure you won't deny it. What that means for me is that it has gotten harder over the years to find those good clients. There are still ways to find them but if I were to do a survey on how many decent jobs one can get here per year, the result might be very disappointing.
So when you say "ProZ.com works hard to help translators be successful in their careers" then "your working hard" is true and I appreciate it, but the way things work with the job distribution through Proz.com here doesn't do anything for me. It has no significant value any more as long as these rock bottom feeders are using the system.
Do you help me be successful in my career? I'm afraid I have to say very little. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort, and I know you all work hard but the job system (having to bid with or accept very low prices to get a job) works against people like me. However, I enjoy being permitted to contribute to the forums and being able to reach a large number of colleagues.
[Edited at 2015-09-09 15:38 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-09-09 15:39 GMT]
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