| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Add "degree of nativeness" to the native language search Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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Diana Obermeyer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
| Something to get used to | Jan 5, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... there had to be some very unique circumstances that would allow that to happen. If one hasn't spent a significant time during their childhood and/or teenage years using these languages, I would not believe that both are native languages.
B
I totally see your point - you can often easily tell a German or English by their sentence structure and their accent.
Maybe 20 years ago, my situation was unusual. I went to a bilingual school and regularly participated in student exchanges ranging from 2 weeks to a year at a time. And at that point it was very expensive and fairly uncommon. I worked from an early age to help pay for it, and I was lucky enough to get the odd scholarship.
But it is not that complicated anymore. There are bilingual schools in most German cities. Summer schools and student exchanges abroad have become much easier to access and involve far less paperwork. As people move about the EU to a far greater extent, there are also more kids, who spend their childhood in various countries and who's parents speak different languages. In some industries, this extends out of the EU to a great extent. Even when I was at school, we had quite a few students join that school after their parents completed projects on the oil fields in the arab countries, during which time they had attended an English school and the parents thought that a bilingual school would be easier to handle on their return than an all German one. Given that those projects last several years, I don't think it's that uncommon for middle and higher rank oil workers to take their families with them. If anything, it is becoming more common.
I personally know at least 20 families in Germany that employ an English-speaking au-pair and who actually use the absence of German skills as a selection criteria to ensure that their kids "have to" speak English to help them later in life.
You can enroll your kids in English lessons from kindergarden age or send them to an English kindergarden (equally, there are German kindergardens in Britain, though not as common).
You can book sports lessons in other languages, change the language on DVDs... There are endless possibilities and a lot of them are not out of reach the way they were 20 years ago. Language exposure is becoming increasingly accessible, accepted and utilised.
Here in Britain there isn't much of a drive to learn languages, in Germany there is.
I really do believe that it won't be long until we will see a new generation of true bilinguals.
| | | | | Native speaker versus native language translator | Jan 5, 2014 |
dianaft wrote:
I really do believe that it won't be long until we will see a new generation of true bilinguals.
Just to emphasize another point related to our profession: as a translator, the "native language" aspect becomes an important additional factor for clients. Clients will already assume you are working as a translator which involves much more than being a native speaker of one or more languages.
The fact that someone is bilingual or trlingual (and that doesn't necessarily mean they are native speakers of all these languages) doesn't automatically make them a professional translator. As you know, much more is required of a good translator.
Just my thoughts.
B
[Edited at 2014-01-05 19:20 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I would prefer "degree of literacy, writing skills, absence of elementary spelling and punctuation errors in native language" to be the criterion.
| | | | | In the target language | Jan 5, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
I would prefer "degree of literacy, writing skills, absence of elementary spelling and punctuation errors in native language" to be the criterion.
How about ... in the target language ?! Nativeness is a separate aspect.
All that you mentioned should be a given - to a very high degree - for a translator anyway.
B
[Edited at 2014-01-05 19:31 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
All that you mentioned should be a given - to a very high degree - for a translator anyway.
I wish !
| | | | | Skills and professionalism should be acknowledged | Jan 5, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
All that you mentioned should be a given - to a very high degree - for a translator anyway.
I wish !
... and they should be acknowledged by clients; not saying that it doesn't happen - there are excellent clients - but you know what I mean.
[Edited at 2014-01-05 19:48 GMT]
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
| that was the point of the thread though... | Jan 5, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: dianaft wrote:
I really do believe that it won't be long until we will see a new generation of true bilinguals. Just to emphasize another point related to our profession: as a translator, the "native language" aspect becomes an important additional factor for clients. Clients will already assume you are working as a translator which involves much more than being a native speaker of one or more languages. The fact that someone is bilingual or trlingual (and that doesn't necessarily mean they are native speakers of all these languages) doesn't automatically make them a professional translator. As you know, much more is required of a good translator. Just my thoughts. B [Edited at 2014-01-05 19:20 GMT]
Of course - that goes without saying. Just as being native or fluent or proficient in any one language does not make one a great writer or proofreader. Nor can general language skills replace specialist knowledge in any given field or vice versa. I didn't intend to imply this at any point.
I am merely saying that full exposure to multiple languages at a young age is becoming an increasingly common phenomenon. It is not as rare and outlandish as it was 20 years ago and we should start accepting this.
The subject of this thread is "degree of nativeness" and my response therefore focusses on this very aspect.
As you state yourself, it is one of many aspects that ***can*** contribute to the quality of a translation. I don't think any client uses it as their sole criterion.
I chose to participate in this thread, because a lot of strong opinions are voiced here and this topic keeps resurfacing regularly. I do not think that this is really justified.
[Edited at 2014-01-05 20:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-01-05 20:30 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 18:57
French to English
dianaft wrote:
I chose to participate in this thread, because a lot of strong opinions are voiced here and this topic keeps resurfacing regularly. I do not think that this is really justified.
[Edited at 2014-01-05 20:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-01-05 20:30 GMT]
I'm sorry I don't understand this, what is not really justified? Bernhard's reaction to your post?
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| Clarification | Jan 5, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote:
I often get to translate this sort of stuff. I do it well not because I'm a native speaker of the source language but because my handle of my source language is topnotch. I have lived in France for over thirty years and have devoted a lot of time to improving my knowledge of French. As an in-house proofreader I have often had to correct translations showing a poor grasp of the source language and/or culture. Very often the translator boasts several source languages and of course there's no way they match my knowledge of French in four different languages!
This is a point which rankled with me at the school I got my Master from: those with only one language pair had to get higher marks than those with two. Whereas when a client calls on a translator for a translation from FR to EN they couldn't care less whether he is any good at DE-EN, they just want a good translation. If he then has a text in German he might be glad that he already has a translator in his address book who can handle it, but apart from that, there is no advantage to the client.
So you may well be a good choice for a complex and poorly-written PT to be translated into EN but that's not to say that there are not native English speakers capable of doing the same.
I don't question ANYone's ability to translate ANYthing, regardless of what they claim to be to be their native language(s).
I knew a man - a close friend of mine's uncle - who mastered twelve languages better than most educated native speakers of each of them. He could explain, for instance, quirks of Portuguese usage that puzzled Brazilian scholars, by comparing how some word or expression in Latin made its way to PT, FR, ES, IT, and what were the extraneous influences surrounding it. Yet he was no translator, nor a philologist... a lawyer instead. Languages were his lifetime hobby.
If you re-read my earlier message, you will notice that I usually refer such books to competent translators I know, living and working as such in the USA (the target language "venue") for some considerable time. I don't think they would be challenged by the author's slips or otherwise, however they (the authors) think so, and eventually prefer having me doing it. The client is king: if they want a Brazilian in Brazil translating their book into English, I'll give them my best shot, for sure.
As practice makes perfect, I'll reckon that my best shot has improved significantly over the past 20 years or so.
Back to my initial point, I think it's up to the translator's ethics to turn down any job offer whenever they feel they are not up to it. I have been turning down jobs from FR and IT into my 100% native PT for 40 years. Yet I see many people translating from EN with lesser knowledge than I have of IT/FR. And I still turn down jobs from EN into PT whenever it requires a level of subject matter expertise that I don't have.
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Texte Style wrote: dianaft wrote:
I chose to participate in this thread, because a lot of strong opinions are voiced here and this topic keeps resurfacing regularly. I do not think that this is really justified.
[Edited at 2014-01-05 20:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-01-05 20:30 GMT] I'm sorry I don't understand this, what is not really justified? Bernhard's reaction to your post?
Not at all.
In this thread, as well as many other similar threads, people are screaming that a proof of nativeness should be required, that one can only be native in one langage and that anyone saying otherwise is a liar. This is not a reference to one particular post, but the general gist of what is happening. This includes a lot of strong opinions.
I chose to participate in the thread - quite obviously - before my first post, at which point nobody could have reacted to what I was about to say. Therefore your question surprises me.
I was merely drawing attention to the fact that a muliti-lingual upbringing is becoming more common and that there will be an increasing amount of people, who will find it difficult to clearly pinpoint, which one of two languages used to a very similar extent is their true native language.
I quoted Bernhard, because he stated that such bilingual ability or dual nativeness does not equal translation skills. If you look at my last post again, you will see that I agreed with this. However, you will also see that I pointed to the fact that the subject of the thread was only the subject of nativeness and not the issue of being a great translator.
Now, if we can agree that translation skills and nativeness are two different things, then why is it a topic of such discontent? Does nativeness replace experience? No. Does nativeness replace specialist knowledge? No. Does nativeness replace qualifications? No. Does nativeness replace great references? NO. Does the avarage client look at someones native language above all these other factors? I don't think so. Then why do people hold such strong opinions? (Before you accuse me of it - this question is based on my reading of the entire thread and other similar threads. The fact that I quoted you at the top does NOT imply that I think you are personally holding a strong opinion. The text that is directly below the quote is the part that refers to it.)
Because it is the one thing they cannot themselves claim? Why not simply focus on the other factors that they can shine with? I am not the only person to whom two languages are of equal value.
As I stated in my first post, I will try to avoid hassle and simply let that language be German when dealing with someone that insists on this "one native language" thing. However, this is a lie. It is German and English. But people's strong opinions force me to lie and choose just one of them.
As I absolutely agree that nativeness is only a contributory and not a deciding factor in translation ability, I am all for removing this profile question altogether. For as long as it stands and it gives me the option to give a truthful answer, I will do so. Yet I do that in the full knowledge of some people holding it against me.
[Edited at 2014-01-06 06:14 GMT]
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 00:57
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Does the avarage client look at someones native language above all these other factors? I don't think so.
Actually they do. More than half the time, it's an entry requirement.
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Lincoln Hui wrote: Does the avarage client look at someones native language above all these other factors? I don't think so. Actually they do. More than half the time, it's an entry requirement.
OK, maybe I simply haven't experienced it to that extent. I mainly deal with direct clients and the first questions that I am asked are about my skills, my education, my experience and samples of my work. I have very rarely been asked about nativeness.
It is on platforms such as this one and with agencies that that question has come up and if I have to, I bow to the pressure. However, if the option is given to provide a faithful and truthful answer, then I want to be able to do that without being treated like a criminal for it, just because some people hold strong opinions. I hate being forced to lie, even if it serves to keep some people happy.
[Edited at 2014-01-06 09:57 GMT]
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 18:57
French to English
Maybe I'm thick but I still don't see what is not justified in your opinion. Having a "native" requirement?
Other than that, I haven't experienced people wanting reassurance as to my being a native speaker either. I suspect that when a colleague recommends me they specify this, or maybe they recommend me so warmly that the client doesn't even care. This is the only way I acquire new clients these days so I wouldn't know about Proz jobs.
However many clients then ask me... See more Maybe I'm thick but I still don't see what is not justified in your opinion. Having a "native" requirement?
Other than that, I haven't experienced people wanting reassurance as to my being a native speaker either. I suspect that when a colleague recommends me they specify this, or maybe they recommend me so warmly that the client doesn't even care. This is the only way I acquire new clients these days so I wouldn't know about Proz jobs.
However many clients then ask me to provide translations from other languages or EN-FR and are disappointed when I refuse. (I only ever once accepted one into French. The client said normally they translated the stuff themselves, but nobody could understand a word. In fact it was the pitch for a new children's programme involving imaginary creatures whose names obviously weren't in the dictionary. I said I would translate it, but that it would be more expensive because it would take me more time and that it would not be as good and they had to promise to proofread my text and send the final version back to me for a final check. On those terms, I was quite comfortable. They didn't change much to my text but the changes they made definitely improved my effort no end. ) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:57
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
| No, just the strong sentiments... | Jan 6, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote:
Maybe I'm thick but I still don't see what is not justified in your opinion. Having a "native" requirement?
Other than that, I haven't experienced people wanting reassurance as to my being a native speaker either. I suspect that when a colleague recommends me they specify this, or maybe they recommend me so warmly that the client doesn't even care. This is the only way I acquire new clients these days so I wouldn't know about Proz jobs.
However many clients then ask me to provide translations from other languages or EN-FR and are disappointed when I refuse. (I only ever once accepted one into French. The client said normally they translated the stuff themselves, but nobody could understand a word. In fact it was the pitch for a new children's programme involving imaginary creatures whose names obviously weren't in the dictionary. I said I would translate it, but that it would be more expensive because it would take me more time and that it would not be as good and they had to promise to proofread my text and send the final version back to me for a final check. On those terms, I was quite comfortable. They didn't change much to my text but the changes they made definitely improved my effort no end. )
I think you need the whole thread to see what I am reacting to. This is not the only thread in that vein either.
I don't think a statement of nativeness affects direct clients that much, unless it's held right under their nose.
A client comes to this site and sees that there is a field for nativeness, and he will probably use it. In many cases, he will do so without giving it much thought. If we were to deal with that same client directly, it is likely that that question would never come up. He is more likely to be interested in the result than in nativeness or levels of nativeness.
Since I mainly deal with direct clients that do not come through platforms, I don't encounter this issue a lot. It is rather the opposite - having to turn away clients seeking other language variants that I don't provide, such as Swiss German.
Without threads like this one, I would simply view it as a tick box on portfolio sites and in some agency databases. So, when I fill out my profile, I tick the appropriate boxes and don't give it much further thought.
Since I genuinely view English and German as equal in terms of nativeness, and this option is provided, I tick both. That is the most honest answer I can provide. Only choosing one does not seem right to me.
I do not think that I am the "rare exception", I do believe that there is an increasing number of people in this position.
But then, I see a horde of people screaming that one cannot be native in two languages and/or that one should have to prove one's nativeness or degree of nativeness and that people just give incorrect information to get access to jobs etc. A lot of these comments are fairly strongly worded and it very much boils down to the assumption that anything that differs from the norm is based on malicious intent. This strong sentiment is what I am reacting to and in which I find little justification.
Well, if it causes that much drama, I am all for removing that nativeness field altogether. It is better to remove the question than to scold an honest answer. If a client's attention isn't drawn to the issue of nativeness in the first place, we can all focus on all the other aspects of what marks us as a translator. Yes, it will still be required for some agency databases. However, it will greatly reduce the number of job-postings that state nativeness as a requirement and focus attention on other aspects of each persons work.
Not everyone who states nativeness in 2 languages does this to "distort" the market. Sometimes it comes from a very simple desire to give a faithful answer.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 00:57
Chinese to English
dianaft wrote:
Not everyone who states nativeness in 2 languages does this to "distort" the market. Sometimes it comes from a very simple desire to give a faithful answer.
Diana, I think you've misread the opinions of people commenting on the nativeness issue. I can't remember every post, of course, but as I recall most people had no problem with the idea that one can have two native languages. The objection was to individuals who claim as native languages in which they are clearly not competent.
As far as I'm concerned, having two native languages is perfectly natural, and I would expect it to be relatively common among translators.
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