| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | standardize blue board comments Thread poster: Ronald van der Linden (X)
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Yaotl Altan 
Mexico
Local time: 03:10
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
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The idea would be to include, in addition to the comments, objective information. possibly color-coded on:
Rates:
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Payment term promised:
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Actual payment
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Communication
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... then the text field will be left for more subjective comments.
[Edited at 2010-08-17 21:05 GMT]
Excellent suggestion, José. Your color-coded bars, for instance, will complement Ronald's idea. I would frankly prefer a more graphic site.
If there are clients who pay instantly through Paypal, your proposed system will clasify them in the green section; if they last 90 days or fail to pay, then we'll see them in the red section.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 02:10
English to German
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In memoriam | Here I have a question | Sep 18, 2010 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Rates:
a) too low, unacceptable
b) somewhat lower than mine
If the translator were to complain about the rates by means of a measly BB rating, why did he work for this customer in the first place?
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Lingua 5B wrote: Ronald van der Linden wrote:
Furthermore, any measurable results can be implemented in job postings for additional information: such as: "this outsourcer generally pays within 30 days" based on blue board entries.
I agree that this would be a very valuable information enabling a quick and efficient screening.
Agree.
Soonthon Lupkitaro
| | | | | The ugly spouse | Sep 19, 2010 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Rates:
a) too low, unacceptable
b) somewhat lower than mine If the translator were to complain about the rates by means of a measly BB rating, why did he work for this customer in the first place?
I entirely agree. You cannot marry an ugly person and then defend your wish to divorce because your spouse is ugly. If you don't like ugly people, don't marry them!
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 02:10
English to German
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In memoriam | Aha! The little flaws in the "standardized" system | Sep 19, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Rates:
a) too low, unacceptable
b) somewhat lower than mine If the translator were to complain about the rates by means of a measly BB rating, why did he work for this customer in the first place? I entirely agree. You cannot marry an ugly person and then defend your wish to divorce because your spouse is ugly. If you don't like ugly people, don't marry them!
Maybe we should rephrase that:
a.) I am a masochist
b.) My negotiation skills suck
The same goes for communication:
Some translators want to be left alone and consider any "Hi, just checking in. How are things coming?" obnoxious and pushy (yours truly, for example), others feel abandonned if they haven't racked up at least half a mile of email conversation per job and insist on having their hand held full-time.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 02:10
English to German
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In memoriam | I could go on... | Sep 19, 2010 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Payment term promised:
a) 60 or more days
b) 30-60 days
c) 2 weeks - 30 days
d) up to 2 weeks
e) COD
Promised? Hm, shouldn't we add:
f) They agree to my payment terms
Actual payment
a) They don't pay
b) They pay late, if prompted
c) They pay on time
d) They pay before the time agreed
e) They pay faster than I can count the money
f) They are at times scatterbrains and sometimes need to be prodded but I don't care because they pretty much put a brand-new car in my driveway each year
| | | | | Answering with a few examples | Sep 19, 2010 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Rates:
a) too low, unacceptable
b) somewhat lower than mine
If the translator were to complain about the rates by means of a measly BB rating, why did he work for this customer in the first place?
Case One:
A solid, multiWWA=5 agency converted my rates stated in USD into theirs local when I enrolled there. Everything went fine for about a year. Then their currency's exchange rates went down relative to the dollar, and the dollar dropped relative to my local currency. Every job offer from them includes something to the effect that if you have any issues regarding deadlines or rates, please consult with your assigned PM.
Of course, after the USD stayed down for a year, I eventually readjusted my rates, to make them equivalent to those I use for domestic clients; after all, I pay my bills in my local currency. When I realized that they were paying me a bit above half of my rates, I tried consulting with my PMs there about it. All of them completely ignored the issue, as if I hadn't written about it. So in spite of a mutually brilliant past record, I stopped working for them.
I phoned their CEO, which was infinitely less pleasant than all his PMs, and he told me there was nothing he would do about about rates.
Case Two:
An agency that knows my level of service always offered me lower than acceptable rates for third-party jobs. One sunny day, they contacted me offering a job at my rates... to translate their own web site!
Unfortunta
Case Three:
I try to learn marketing techniques from other trades, and adapt them to translation. I have a special "frequent flyers' club" of clients who get some privileges from me. They keep me busy all the time, their deadlines are quite fair, and their payment practices are a model for the industry.
Now and then I randomly pick a not-too-large "low" job offer from a new client, consider that they might have been outsourcing to amateurs for too long, state my terms, and do it on theirs, just once. They'll have a chance to see the real thing. It won't change the world, however twice already such people hired me to redo large jobs done by amateurs, after they had been rejected by the end-clients on despicable quality grounds.
If you analyze a bunch of BB records, you might see several outsourcers that started out "bad", but later became "good", possibly as they got their paying act together. Likewise you'll see many that had a good start, but "went bad" after a while, possibly by poor management of their success. This information (though I'll admit that my proposal was sketchy, at brainstorming level) might shed some light on why?.
| | | | | My wife won't let me marry anyone else... not even a translation outsourcer | Sep 19, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: I entirely agree. You cannot marry an ugly person and then defend your wish to divorce because your spouse is ugly. If you don't like ugly people, don't marry them!
Though many leonine NDAs try to make the translator-outsourcer relationship look like a monogamous marriage, it's not so. A freelancer is deemed to be a professional philanderer. We take "projects" from clients - not vows. Though we may build a professional long-lasting relationship with some of them, it won't be exclusive like marriage, otherwise it's named employment.
Furthermore, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 11:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| BB is about reliability, not kindness | Sep 19, 2010 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The system was devised with the intention of 3 being the average score, 4 and 5 being reserved for those extraordinary clients for whom a translator would go respectively one and two steps beyond the call of duty.
This is always the problem with such ratings -- some respondents believe that 3 means "at the expected standard" while some believe that 3 means "barely acceptable". For some, a 5 score means "absolutely fabulously fantastic people to work with" whereas others believe that a 5 score means "no complaints, thank you". This is why comments are so important, and why some guidance (even in the form of multiple choice questions) may be helpful.
Nevertheless, I see many all-5ers with comments to the tune of though their rates are too low..., in spite of their payment being on the last day of the second month after delivery..., though they only pay after the umpteenth reminder..., so only hardcore delinquents get less than 5.
A low rate and a long payment term is not a sign of unreliableness and untrustworthiness. At least, not to everyone. I realise that there are translators who are unable to distinguish between reliability and kindness, and for them a low rate would equal a 1-rating regardless of how reliable the client is, and a high rate might just mean a 5-rating, even if the client is dodgy.
To me, the BB is about reliability and trust, and not about kindness (i.e. how favourable the client's offered terms are to the translator). These are completely different issues. Unfortunately, some people now want to use the BB as an easy way of telling whether the client pays good money quickly or bad money slowly. These are things that you can ask the client directly -- i.e. "How much do you offer me for this work" and "How long do you take to pay" -- and it doesn't tell you anything about how reliable a client is, how likely he is to be fair to you, and how likely he is to pay you what and when he said he would.
Rates:
a) too low, unacceptable
b) somewhat lower than mine
c) my standard
d) higher than my standard
e) tops
Payment term promised:
a) 60 or more days
b) 30-60 days
c) 2 weeks - 30 days
d) up to 2 weeks
e) COD
It would be a sad day if this is implemented.
Actual payment
a) They don't pay
b) They pay late, if prompted
c) They pay on time
d) They pay before the time agreed
e) They pay faster than I can count the money
Communication
a) They don't care what I'm expected to do
b) They don't know what I'm expected to do
c) They give clear instructions
d) They quickly get me any information I need
e) They support me all the way through
This, on the other hand, is useful information that you can't get by simply asking the client questions.
I'm in favour of a system with multiple choice questions in which translators can quickly rate the reliability aspects of the agency in a numbered way. This would include whether the client paid on time, whether the client was reasonably quick to reply to queries, whether the client's additional demands were reasonable, and whether the translator is likely to work for the client again.
| | | | Ali Alsaqqa
United States
Local time: 05:10
English to Arabic
I support this idea, but we should let the translator to insert any extra comments he/she wants to add.
| | | | | You are on the right track, Samuel | Sep 19, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The system was devised with the intention of 3 being the average score, 4 and 5 being reserved for those extraordinary clients for whom a translator would go respectively one and two steps beyond the call of duty. This is always the problem with such ratings -- some respondents believe that 3 means "at the expected standard" while some believe that 3 means "barely acceptable". For some, a 5 score means "absolutely fabulously fantastic people to work with" whereas others believe that a 5 score means "no complaints, thank you". This is why comments are so important, and why some guidance (even in the form of multiple choice questions) may be helpful.
I never suggested banning the space for text. My idea was to create some visual representation of the most frequent stadard-izable information found there, plus any comments in text format.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Nevertheless, I see many all-5ers with comments to the tune of though their rates are too low..., in spite of their payment being on the last day of the second month after delivery..., though they only pay after the umpteenth reminder..., so only hardcore delinquents get less than 5.
Samuel Murray wrote:
A low rate and a long payment term is not a sign of unreliableness and untrustworthiness. At least, not to everyone. I realise that there are translators who are unable to distinguish between reliability and kindness, and for them a low rate would equal a 1-rating regardless of how reliable the client is, and a high rate might just mean a 5-rating, even if the client is dodgy.
To me, the BB is about reliability and trust, and not about kindness (i.e. how favourable the client's offered terms are to the translator). These are completely different issues. Unfortunately, some people now want to use the BB as an easy way of telling whether the client pays good money quickly or bad money slowly. These are things that you can ask the client directly -- i.e. "How much do you offer me for this work" and "How long do you take to pay" -- and it doesn't tell you anything about how reliable a client is, how likely he is to be fair to you, and how likely he is to pay you what and when he said he would.
I don't consider that as kindness, but "business worthiness" instead. I mean, if it's generally worthwhile to work for this outsourcer. They may be as reliable as it gets, however if they pay, say, half of what you are used to get from your existing clients, and it takes them twice as long to pay you, it may be a waste of your time to work for them.
Samuel Murray wrote: I'm in favour of a system with multiple choice questions in which translators can quickly rate the reliability aspects of the agency in a numbered way. This would include whether the client paid on time, whether the client was reasonably quick to reply to queries, whether the client's additional demands were reasonable, and whether the translator is likely to work for the client again.
That's the basic idea. I was brainstorming about possibilities to enhance that. There is an agency that is absolutely and unanimously tops on all these criteria you mentioned, but the rates they pay now, and the time it takes them to do it, led me to give them a WWA=3 (using the 'strict' concept, as set out in the first pargraphs here). I'll only take a job from them if I have absolutely nothing better to do with my time. Later I changed my 3 into a 5, because I realized that these criteria of mine were not expected to be considered on the Blue Board. My intent in this suggestion was to make the Blue Board more comprehensive than it is.
| | | | Simone Linke
Germany
Local time: 11:10
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Just to bring this to the top again.. | Nov 30, 2010 |
Given some other recent threads, I'd like to bring this thread to the top again and I hope that maybe a Proz.com staff member will provide an update on this.
Are there any changes planned for the Blue Board ratings / display?
Particularly: higher character limit for the comments, more detailed ratings (e.g. individual ratings for the PMs and the accounting dept.), and more information on the payment terms & morale?
For example, I've worked for one client wi... See more Given some other recent threads, I'd like to bring this thread to the top again and I hope that maybe a Proz.com staff member will provide an update on this.
Are there any changes planned for the Blue Board ratings / display?
Particularly: higher character limit for the comments, more detailed ratings (e.g. individual ratings for the PMs and the accounting dept.), and more information on the payment terms & morale?
For example, I've worked for one client with a top-notch Blue Board rating only to find out that a) their payment terms are 60 days, b) they don't even pay on the 60th day but some days later, c) they basically expect their translators to be on stand-by but don't bother themslves to set up auto-responders if there is a holiday in their country (which resulted in unanswered mails), and d) when I raised my concerns about the quality of their TM for a project I've been working on, they explicitly told me that speed was more important than accuracy here.
Obviously, that raises the question how in the world that agency has gotten all those 5-star ratings (it's not just a handful but almost three dozens). And the few 4-star ratings don't even have any explanation why the fifth star was missing.
Hence, the Blue Board is useless for this client, and it's not the only case like this.
Is there anything in the works to improve this situation? After all, the Blue Board is one of the reasons why many still pay for the Proz membership, isn't it?
Thanks! ▲ Collapse
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| Sweet and simple solution | Nov 30, 2010 |
So many translation e-venues have copied so much from Proz, that payback is fully justified. One of them - whose name I suppose I can't mention here, but Starbucks would make an immediate association - has developed a good solution for this Blue Board problem. However IMHO it's too verbose there. I'm sure the brilliant Proz developers can pick up the concept/criteria and develop them into something more visual, possibly reusing some code from the "Availability" dots.
Just my 2¢.
| | | | Ronald van der Linden (X)
Mexico
Local time: 03:10
German to Dutch
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TOPIC STARTER
I've asked the moderator to propose Proz.com's view regarding this discussion.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 11:10
French to German
+ ...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So many translation e-venues have copied so much from Proz, that payback is fully justified. One of them - whose name I suppose I can't mention here, but Starbucks would make an immediate association - has developed a good solution for this Blue Board problem. However IMHO it's too verbose there. I'm sure the brilliant Proz developers can pick up the concept/criteria and develop them into something more visual, possibly reusing some code from the "Availability" dots.
Just my 2¢.
I can agree that colleagues posting ratings at this particular venue tend to get too verbose. But from my point of view, this is because discussions are allowed to go on and on in the form of forum threads, which is good and bad at the same time.
[Modifié le 2010-12-01 09:08 GMT]
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