| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | American English usage in Proz message Thread poster: Steven Smith
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Steven Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:55
Member (2007)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote: Steven F Smith wrote:
I agree that 'until' can be ambiguous. In my mind 'until June 12' happily flickers between the two meanings. I also agree that "until" can be ambiguous. But so can "through". If someone had said "I'll be living in Greenland through 2012", I would have understood it to mean that the person would be in Greenland from roughly January 2012 to December 2012, and not that he would be in Greenland from roughly the current month until some time in 2012. I'm not saying that the American way of speaking makes less sense. But it does take some getting used to if you're not used to it. After having seen countless movie previews for American movies, it still takes me a second or two to realise that when the preview narrative says "this fall" it doesn't mean "this accident", but "this autumn". (-: [Edited at 2010-06-30 07:51 GMT]
Yes, your example occured to me too. I wonder if the American usage only applies to days and shorter periods.
I don't think I could ever get used to the missing 'to' in 'write your mother' either. I only rīt people if I see them capsizing 
| | | | | I vote for a "neutral" solution | Jun 30, 2010 |
And the sentence quoted here is not neutral enough - far too American for my taste
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I think this discussion sounds pedantic.
| | | | Steven Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:55
Member (2007)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
philgoddard wrote:
I think this discussion sounds pedantic.
Show me a discussion about language use that doesn't!
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Oliver Walter 
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:55
German to English
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| Can English be written without ambiguity? | Jul 1, 2010 |
I frequently notice that it is rather difficult, or at least requires a conscious effort, to compose English sentences that cannot be misunderstood. In my case, both when I write postings to Proz and when I write to translation agencies in other countries, I always take a little time to consider whether what I am writing will be clearly understood, and I frequently make amendments to my initial choice of words.
In the case that started this thread (US usage of through), could... See more I frequently notice that it is rather difficult, or at least requires a conscious effort, to compose English sentences that cannot be misunderstood. In my case, both when I write postings to Proz and when I write to translation agencies in other countries, I always take a little time to consider whether what I am writing will be clearly understood, and I frequently make amendments to my initial choice of words.
In the case that started this thread (US usage of through), could a native US-English speaker please inform us: should a native US-English speaker be aware that users of English other than native US speakers might not appreciate through as meaning until the end of? If yes, they should not use this construction; if no, this is another example of how, to quote George Bernard Shaw, Britain and America are two nations divided by a common language.
(Yes, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Phrase, Saying and Quotation, 2nd Ed., it was GBS and not, for example, Oscar Wilde)
In my opinion it is not satisfactory to compose written material using exactly the same words that you would use if you are speaking to a colleague. In such a case an ambiguity can be pointed out and corrrected immediately, which you can't do once you have sent your written text to the other party.
My conclusion: when you are writing text for other people to read, remember that the purpose is not simply to write what you are thinking - it is to be understood.
Oliver
[Edited at 2010-07-01 09:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | l08l
United States
Local time: 23:55
English to Indonesian
+ ...
| They Gave Us a Reminder | Jul 1, 2010 |
I am referring to the original problem posted. Why is it a problem when they gave you a reminder (at the top-right of the page) of how many days left to the expiration date.
While about usage of 'through' and 'until', I will just leave it to you guys... ^_^
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Same case if you try to write for Germany and Switzerland | Jul 1, 2010 |
You can keep arguing and "correcting" back and forth - there is no such thing as international German and there is no such thing as international English.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:55
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Bitch and moan | Jul 1, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I think this discussion sounds pedantic.
Of course it is. It is a fine opportunity to bitch and moan about something other than low rates.
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
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In memoriam | Some caution should be applied here | Jul 1, 2010 |
Oliver Walter wrote:
In my opinion it is not satisfactory to compose written material using exactly the same words that you would use if you are speaking to a colleague. In such a case an ambiguity can be pointed out and corrrected immediately, which you can't do once you have sent your written text to the other party.
My conclusion: when you are writing text for other people to read, remember that the purpose is not simply to write what you are thinking - it is to be understood.
Because "using the same words if you are speaking to a colleague" strongly suggests that a colloquial language has been applied. To be able to distinguish between precise legal terminology and colloquialisms is essential. Not everything that sounds very American to British ears should be considered "colloquial". They write this way for a reason.
| | | | Steven Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:55
Member (2007)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Nicole Schnell wrote: Oliver Walter wrote:
In my opinion it is not satisfactory to compose written material using exactly the same words that you would use if you are speaking to a colleague. In such a case an ambiguity can be pointed out and corrrected immediately, which you can't do once you have sent your written text to the other party.
My conclusion: when you are writing text for other people to read, remember that the purpose is not simply to write what you are thinking - it is to be understood.
Because "using the same words if you are speaking to a colleague" strongly suggests that a colloquial language has been applied. To be able to distinguish between precise legal terminology and colloquialisms is essential. Not everything that sounds very American to British ears should be considered "colloquial". They write this way for a reason.
I may be misunderstanding, but are you saying this use of 'through' is precise legal terminology and not a colloquiallism? I'd be very interested to know if this is the case.
- After a quick google I find it is used quite commonly in American legal contracts. Interesting!
[Edited at 2010-07-01 12:02 GMT]
| | | | | Yes because... | Jul 1, 2010 |
Steven F Smith wrote:
- After a quick google I find it is used quite commonly in American legal contracts.
It is not ambiguos as it clearly means (until and included).
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Steven F Smith wrote:
- After a quick google I find it is used quite commonly in American legal contracts. Interesting!
[Edited at 2010-07-01 12:02 GMT]
My printed Webster's for example (don't make me pull Black's Law Dictionary) defines this term in this context as:
"up to and including [e.g. through Friday]"
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Steven Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:55
Member (2007)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Angio wrote: Steven F Smith wrote:
- After a quick google I find it is used quite commonly in American legal contracts. It is not ambiguos as it clearly means (until and included).
The fact remains that it is an American usage. You would never find it in British English contracts, it is unfamiliar to non-American native English speakers, as is clear from some of the other posts, and there is nothing intrinsically unambiguous about it, it is only unambiguous by convention to those who are familiar with the fact that this is what it 'unambiguously' means! IMHO, a delocalized, internationally understood expression would be the definition itself: 'up to and including'
| | | | Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:55
French to English
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| Unrealistic to expect everything to be delocalised | Jul 1, 2010 |
Steven F Smith wrote: Angio wrote: Steven F Smith wrote:
- After a quick google I find it is used quite commonly in American legal contracts. It is not ambiguos as it clearly means (until and included). The fact remains that it is an American usage. You would never find it in British English contracts, it is unfamiliar to non-American native English speakers, as is clear from some of the other posts, and there is nothing intrinsically unambiguous about it, it is only unambiguous by convention to those who are familiar with the fact that this is what it 'unambiguously' means! IMHO, a delocalized, internationally understood expression would be the definition itself: 'up to and including'
Could you go through a passage that you wrote yourself and pick out all the examples of UK-specific usage that might not be immediately clear to a US English speaker? I'd wager you couldn't. US English is not your native variety, so it's to be expected that there are features of it you might not immediately be familiar with - but as others have shown you, the difficulties you experience are not insurmountable (i.e. you can look it up, or ask a native US English speaker).
I've spent enough time on US-based websites and with American friends that I consider myself familiar with US usage, but I still issue a disclaimer if a client asks for US English that all I can really do is turn the spelling and grammar checker on, and that some UK English features may remain, of which I may not be aware.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Why do I never hear or read any complaints from US native speakers about BE. Maybe because we, oh, so traditionalist Americans are very polite and courteous. Or maybe because we simply don't have any problems understanding BE.
Right now my company is in the middle of translating a Swiss non-fiction book into AE. The scenario! The agony! When will the Swiss ever learn how to speak proper German like the real Germans do! This must be colloquialisms! Outrageous! Hill(Alpes?)billies! T... See more Why do I never hear or read any complaints from US native speakers about BE. Maybe because we, oh, so traditionalist Americans are very polite and courteous. Or maybe because we simply don't have any problems understanding BE.
Right now my company is in the middle of translating a Swiss non-fiction book into AE. The scenario! The agony! When will the Swiss ever learn how to speak proper German like the real Germans do! This must be colloquialisms! Outrageous! Hill(Alpes?)billies! This book was meant for German market after all! They must speak properly, not this sloppy German, and their punctuation is all wrong!
Do we consider Swiss (or Austrian) German a lesser language? No. It is a different language, we respect it and it is beautiful. Even if we have to spend an extra second contemplating what the author meant. Because there are texts that are not meant for dumb people. Such as ProZ.com activities. ▲ Collapse
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