Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4] >
How to improve Proz blue board and rates problem at the same time
Thread poster: Radovan Pletka
Jeff Whittaker
Jeff Whittaker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:46
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Rates Apr 2, 2010

I also respectfully disagree with that statement. At the start of this year, I decided to double my rates for new clients and although it may seem counter-intuitive, I now have more work than ever. Accepting a low rate sends the wrong message.

ildiko wrote:

nabnet wrote:
I agree that rates are falling down and the reason is "the economic crisis"!!


I respectfully disagree with this statement. As it was so rightfully pointed out in a recent article,
translation rates are dropping because translators accept low rates.
I highly recommend reading the full article: "Toxic Translation"
http://provenwrite.wordpress.com/about/twelve-step-program-for-self-injuring-translators/


 
apk12
apk12  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:46
English to German
+ ...
yes and yes. Apr 2, 2010

a) indeed perfect article (toxic translation). with growing range of links coming in there and posts/replies.
b) yes, quality categories for agencies needed - and yes, catherines input is, I think, more helpful.
c) again, I thought it´s us to pay this page here
d) in the meantime, at least some sampling space for extra special categories 0-0.01, 0.011-0.02, 0.021-0.03 just a fe
... See more
a) indeed perfect article (toxic translation). with growing range of links coming in there and posts/replies.
b) yes, quality categories for agencies needed - and yes, catherines input is, I think, more helpful.
c) again, I thought it´s us to pay this page here
d) in the meantime, at least some sampling space for extra special categories 0-0.01, 0.011-0.02, 0.021-0.03 just a few bits and one click away http://shortlinks.de/pdx8 (just found it online, seems to be fresh, maybe worth a look.)


ps there is a sentence I don't understand yet on http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/faq - "But the petition, and discussions with petitioners, made it clear that many translators have been regarding client figures as absolute. In light of this, the decision was made to modify the job posting system so that there would be no room for this sort of misinterpretation." as a translator, i´d like to thank whoever wrote this for such a nice sentence, telling me that the page is apologizing to the rubbish rate posters for their paying translators not being able to read and for these translators notoriously misinterpreting the rates the outsourcers posted actually with the intention of a - their - fact and a - their - absolute figure of a - their - desire. probably I should go back to school and learn to read again. I have not heard about a 0.02-0.03 trash poster being suddenly able to negotiate whatever. they think that's normal and that's how it should be just because a) some of them can't afford a human rate and because their google page never said 'no way' to them, so they're not used to normal human behaviour. and just because b) some other don't want to spend a human rate. with a lot of explanations.








[Edited at 2010-04-03 06:32 GMT]
Collapse


 
Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 11:46
French to German
+ ...
And yes again Apr 3, 2010

apk12 wrote:

ps there is a sentence I don't understand yet on http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/faq - "But the petition, and discussions with petitioners, made it clear that many translators have been regarding client figures as absolute. In light of this, the decision was made to modify the job posting system so that there would be no room for this sort of misinterpretation." as a translator, i´d like to thank whoever wrote this for such a nice sentence, telling me that the page is apologizing to the rubbish rate posters for their paying translators not being able to read and for these translators notoriously misinterpreting the rates the outsourcers posted actually with the intention of a - their - fact and a - their - absolute figure of a - their - desire. probably I should go back to school and learn to read again. I have not heard about a 0.02-0.03 trash poster being suddenly able to negotiate whatever. they think that's normal and that's how it should be just because a) some of them can't afford a human rate and because their google page never said 'no way' to them, so they're not used to normal human behaviour. and just because b) some other don't want to spend a human rate. with a lot of explanations.

And yes again... Indeed, there are some acrobatics involved in thinking that a rock-bottomer posting a job offer at the rates you indicate is a position in which s/he is able, willing or whatever to consider higher rates...

Those rates say the same as the email I received today: "Budget unfortunately is very limited - I prefer to say this already now: 0.0X € / source word." Anyone in for trying to squeeze blood out of a stone?


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:46
Spanish to English
+ ...
@Laurent Apr 3, 2010

And, precisely for the reasons that you and others have indicated in this thread, I don't think the changes recently implemented by this site will make a shred of difference in the "bottom-feeder" postings. Much better would be to allow ratings of the offers and/or to display a graph that shows where the rate offered for the posted job stands in relation to the average and range of rates for the language pair in question. This is what I suggested be done back in October (see reference to that th... See more
And, precisely for the reasons that you and others have indicated in this thread, I don't think the changes recently implemented by this site will make a shred of difference in the "bottom-feeder" postings. Much better would be to allow ratings of the offers and/or to display a graph that shows where the rate offered for the posted job stands in relation to the average and range of rates for the language pair in question. This is what I suggested be done back in October (see reference to that thread in my previous post above).Collapse


 
Radovan Pletka
Radovan Pletka  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:46
English to Czech
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
???Is PROZ for translators or for Translation agencies??? Apr 4, 2010

It seems from most of the postings, that majority of our esteemed colleagues do not understand the basic #1 problem here.
Proz is here primarily to make money, not to allow translators to make more money on the expense of Proz bottom line.
So it is clearly understandable that they reacted to the petition of nearly 1000 translators and are willing to make some cosmetic changes, but they will not do anything to jeopardize their main stream of income - which seems to be the bottom fishi
... See more
It seems from most of the postings, that majority of our esteemed colleagues do not understand the basic #1 problem here.
Proz is here primarily to make money, not to allow translators to make more money on the expense of Proz bottom line.
So it is clearly understandable that they reacted to the petition of nearly 1000 translators and are willing to make some cosmetic changes, but they will not do anything to jeopardize their main stream of income - which seems to be the bottom fishing agencies, not the translators.
I don't believe Proz will admit this openly, but anybody with IQ higher than a room temperature can figure this out, it is not a rocket science.
The question is, what we are going to do now.
And I also do not believe this discussion will be allowed to continue here too much longer, because it is becoming serious.
So my dear colleagues, what we are going to do?????
Collapse


 
Cristóbal del Río Faura
Cristóbal del Río Faura  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:46
English to Spanish
+ ...
What we are going to do? Apr 4, 2010

You are a paying member, Radovan. I am not since 2006. I knew what I had to do...

 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:46
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Can you support this statement? Apr 4, 2010

Radovan Pletka wrote:

their main stream of income - which seems to be the bottom fishing agencies, not the translators.


Excuse me, Radovan, but do you have some evindence supporting this statement?
Job postings are free, as far as I know... So, how exactly would the "bottom fishing agencies" be the main source (or in fact, any source) of income? Enlighten me, I am lost here.

Katalin


 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 07:46
English to Spanish
+ ...
The times are changin' Apr 4, 2010

Robert Forstag wrote:

What you have proposed here is very similar to an idea I suggested for modification of the Blue Board some months ago, an idea that in my view would help discourage the low-ball postings far better than the recent modifications announced by proz.com staff.

See:

http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_job_systems/148222-allow_site_members_users_to_rate_each_job_posting.html



I saw it and followed the thread. I agree absolutely. I believe the more information one has about an outsourcers conduct the better decisions one can make. It's not about making black lists, but about transparency. In this sense it doesn't help to eliminate outsourcers pricing on the job posts. They would automatically fall in the level they place themselves. What I don't agree with is your "variant" because it might be confusing, in the sense that the lowest fees might be acceptable. I think there should be a limit for professional work, and those out of that limit, are just out. They are of no interest. In fact, although I'm revising my conduct (garden Guerilla style), I never answer job posts that are below my limit unless it's a NPO or something similar.


 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 07:46
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Wrong information Apr 4, 2010

Radovan Pletka wrote:

It seems from most of the postings, that majority of our esteemed colleagues do not understand the basic #1 problem here.
Proz is here primarily to make money, not to allow translators to make more money on the expense of Proz bottom line.
So it is clearly understandable that they reacted to the petition of nearly 1000 translators and are willing to make some cosmetic changes, but they will not do anything to jeopardize their main stream of income - which seems to be the bottom fishing agencies, not the translators.
I don't believe Proz will admit this openly, but anybody with IQ higher than a room temperature can figure this out, it is not a rocket science.


This is simply untrue. The main source of ProZ.com's income are the membership fees paid by its members. Outsourcers do not pay to post in the jobs system.

Regards,
Enrique


 
Radovan Pletka
Radovan Pletka  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:46
English to Czech
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Main source of income for Proz Apr 4, 2010

I am not sure what the main source of income for Proz is.
If the main source of income really are the membership fees, proz is not doing the best job keeping paying customers happy.
If we want the translation agencies to be grouped in 5 groups like restaurants according to rates they pay to translators, so that we have an idea if we are dealing with one star "fast food" translation type of agency (pay on average less than 4 cents per word,
or with 5 star top of the line agency
... See more
I am not sure what the main source of income for Proz is.
If the main source of income really are the membership fees, proz is not doing the best job keeping paying customers happy.
If we want the translation agencies to be grouped in 5 groups like restaurants according to rates they pay to translators, so that we have an idea if we are dealing with one star "fast food" translation type of agency (pay on average less than 4 cents per word,
or with 5 star top of the line agency (pay on average more than 17 cents per word),
why we are not hearing from Proz about it?
If we want it and if we pay, we should get it. Last time I checked, paying customer is always right. And if there is a problem with implementing this, why don't we hear why?

Should I start looking for another company to implement this?
Proz is not alone, and not even 800 pound gorillas are living for ever, especially if paying customers put them on a slim-fast diet (smile)

I will post this to my free site at jobsfortranslators (feel free to add the usual ending), where I have more than 5000 colleagues and I will ask them what they think and we will go from there.

Sincerely

Radovan Pletka
Collapse


 
apk12
apk12  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:46
English to German
+ ...
uga! Apr 4, 2010

uga! I add my chimpanzee dialect answer to this!

great post, radovan. I´ll post this onto this justanotherrubbishtranslationsprovider.wordpress. page I've recently found in the net (feel free to add the usual ending to this )

erm and yes, as far as I am informed the membership fees are not playing an irrelevant part. but of course, if a staff member wishes to clarify...


always intere
... See more
uga! I add my chimpanzee dialect answer to this!

great post, radovan. I´ll post this onto this justanotherrubbishtranslationsprovider.wordpress. page I've recently found in the net (feel free to add the usual ending to this )

erm and yes, as far as I am informed the membership fees are not playing an irrelevant part. but of course, if a staff member wishes to clarify...


always interested and curious.






[Edited at 2010-04-04 19:48 GMT]
Collapse


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:46
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
What is top and what is not is relative Apr 6, 2010

Radovan Pletka wrote:

I am not sure what the main source of income for Proz is.


OK, then it would be a good idea to refrain from making statements about it. (And draw conclusions based on those statements.)

If we want the translation agencies to be grouped in 5 groups


Who is "we"?

like restaurants according to rates they pay to translators, so that we have an idea if we are dealing with one star "fast food" translation type of agency (pay on average less than 4 cents per word, or with 5 star top of the line agency (pay on average more than 17 cents per word), why we are not hearing from Proz about it?


You started out with 3 groups, now you are saying 5 - I hope you will stop at that...


The problem is that you are talking about exact figures (well, not exact as others pointed out, "cents" is not clear without specifying the currency). Rates are relative - I mean what you consider a low rate, may be acceptable or quite a good deal for somebody else. As soon as you try to set up some sort of standard with exact figures, you are getting into the problem of rates differring based on language pair, specialization, complexity of the job, etc. etc.
So, it is hard to imagine that you would be able to come up with some magic numbers that would make sense across language pairs, specializations, etc.

The only way I could imagine any sort of evaluating rates paid by agencies would be based on the individual translator's point of view, such as "paid less than my normal rates", "paid my normal rates" and "paid more than what I normally get" or something like that (maybe "dissatisfied with the rate" "satisfied" and "very satisfied"). But again, if an agency pays less than my normal rates, I would not work for them, or not often, and I would think translators working for them regularly do so because they are satisfied with the rate they get. So, again, who is to say what is good and what is not?

There are a few other things to consider, I think.
The Blue Board lets everybody to give a rating to their clients based on their likelihood of working for them again. Part of that evaluation is the rates, I think. If you read through the BB, you will see that people do comment on low rates. So, in a way, you can get a sense of rates (although not in the way you seems to want it).
The other thing to think about it is that professional organizations often declare it unethical if their members discuss rates specific to clients.
Many agreements with agencies include a clause about not disclosing the details of the business relationship, and some of them specifically forbid discussing the payment received with other translators.

Just a few cents (US dollar cents) of mine...
Katalin


 
Radovan Pletka
Radovan Pletka  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:46
English to Czech
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
What I want in Blue board is fairness for translators Apr 6, 2010

Blue board is good, but the rating has no relevance to payments and rates and fairness, and this is my problem with Blue board.
I want to be able to rate TA on their professionalism and payment policies, and also on how much they pay, so that we all can decide if the TA is decent company which pays at least 2 digit rates or not.
Many translators prefer to buy your coffee from a company, which pays fair wages to coffee growers in South America, and they surely feel better with a cup o
... See more
Blue board is good, but the rating has no relevance to payments and rates and fairness, and this is my problem with Blue board.
I want to be able to rate TA on their professionalism and payment policies, and also on how much they pay, so that we all can decide if the TA is decent company which pays at least 2 digit rates or not.
Many translators prefer to buy your coffee from a company, which pays fair wages to coffee growers in South America, and they surely feel better with a cup of such coffee.
I want my colleagues to have the same chance with translation.
We grow the translation (coffee) and I want us to get decent wages for our product and I am asking Proz to assure its translation (coffee) buyers abide by a fair pricing policy and I am trying to figure out the way how to do it. Will it be easy? No. But we have to start now.



R. Pletka


[Edited at 2010-04-06 13:42 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-04-06 13:43 GMT]
Collapse


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:46
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
BB has no relevance to payments? Apr 8, 2010

Radovan Pletka wrote:

Blue board is good, but the rating has no relevance to payments and rates and fairness, and this is my problem with Blue board.


Why do you say the BB has no relevance to payments? I think one of the major factors in BB ratings is exactly the payment practices. Almost every single entry contains a comment about whether the company pays on time, or slow, needs reminders, or does not pay at all. As to rates, again, that should be (and I believe most of the time is) incorporated in the LWA (likelihood of working again) number (1-5) given by the person making the entry. You are right in that the person's opinion about the rate is not separated from the overall opinion - I remember some suggestions a while ago about introducing another, separate criteria for that.
As to "fairness", I am not sure what you mean, the fairness of how the agency treats the translator? I think that is part of how professional they are, how they behave, which again, goes into the overall evaluation, isn't it?

I want to be able to rate TA on their professionalism and payment policies, and also on how much they pay,


But this is exactly what the BB is for. You can rate a company based on how much they paid to you - if everything else was OK, and you were satisfied with the rate you got, you give them a 5, right? If you were not very satisfied with the rate, you give them a 4 or a 3. If you thought the rate was absolutely disgusting, then... Well, then why did you take the job? Well, whatever reason, you can still give them a 2 or a 1.

so that we all can decide if the TA is decent company which pays at least 2 digit rates or not.


Radovan, you need to understand that you are getting nowhere with your proposal by repeating figures like this.
2 digit rates in what currency? US dollar? Yeah, maybe, but you know what? Many of my very decent clients pay single digit rates (in US dollars) - and I have been working for them happily for a long time. Here is the catch: they pay this rate per character. (The translations are from Japanese, that's why.)
And again, what is a decent rate, in which country, which language pair, what specialty? I doubt that the rate for a translation about specialty wines from Hungarian to Japanese would go for the same rate than a general business letter from English to Spanish. Not even similar, and these two jobs could go through the very same agency. (Which could be decent or not in other terms.)


I am asking Proz to assure its translation (coffee) buyers abide by a fair pricing policy


ProZ is only a venue. It only provides a place for the market participants to meet. It does not interfere with pricing in any way. That is between the purchaser and the provider, they have to negotiate it. Based on that fundamental outset, I have a hard time to see how ProZ could enforce any sort of minimum price level (it would be illegal anyway in some jurisdictions, as far as I know), and again, what would be that minimum price?

(I am not going to go into details on the analogy between translations vs. coffee, just say that I find it strange, as I think of translation as a service, and not a commodity.)

Will it be easy? No. But we have to start now.


This sounds like trying to set up a union... Well... Good luck...
Katalin
[Edited for typo]

[Edited at 2010-04-08 14:53 GMT]


 
Rifraf
Rifraf
Local time: 11:46
No crisis? Apr 8, 2010

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
The "economic crisis" is nothing more than an hypocritical pretext evoked by unscrupulous outsourcers.
Catherine

[Edited at 2010-04-02 18:02 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-04-02 18:03 GMT]


I have to ask: On what happy planet are you living on?

No crisis? Get real! In Europe it has been going on since the start of 2009. There are much less translation jobs to go round (not taking into consideration work for the European Commissions etc), there are way more unqualified translators in this business willing to work for ridiculous rates and the number of Internet translation agencies and portal sites (like Proz) has risen tremendously!

But seriously: I know that there are some translators out there who are less affected by the crisis, because they have a steady amount of direct clients (who aren't shopping around for the best rates) or they keep on getting plenty of work from agencies because their rate is good (not too high).


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

How to improve Proz blue board and rates problem at the same time






Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

Buy now! »
Trados Business Manager Lite
Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio

Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.

More info »