Warn translator if his rate is much higher/lower than community rate Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 03:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Currently, when a job poster posts a job and specifies a low rate, he gets a warning that his rate is far below the community rate (which presumably is an average of all rates indicated by translators in that language pair).
I think a similar thing should be done for translators, to help educate them about ultra low or unrealistically high rates, as follows:
1. When a translator's rates are much higher or lower than the community rate, there should be a warning in red t... See more Currently, when a job poster posts a job and specifies a low rate, he gets a warning that his rate is far below the community rate (which presumably is an average of all rates indicated by translators in that language pair).
I think a similar thing should be done for translators, to help educate them about ultra low or unrealistically high rates, as follows:
1. When a translator's rates are much higher or lower than the community rate, there should be a warning in red text on his non-public profile view, as well as on any pages where he fills in his rate.
2. When a translator enters rates into a jobs bid that are much lower or higher than the community rate, he should get a warning in red text on the bid preview page about it. He should be allowed to offer whatever rate he wants to, of course, but he should be warned about it nonetheless (regardless of the rate suggested by the jobs poster). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Only if lower, please | Mar 29, 2010 |
Samuel,
If the purpose of such modification (or in fact any modification to the job system) is to put a stop on downwards pressure on rates, then only rates that are below the community average should get "warnings" of any kind.
Every job is different, the so called "community rates" are a big mixing bowl currently, there is no distinction for specialization, credentials, number of years of experience, etc. so the big grand average is not very meaningful. We know we don't want the ra... See more Samuel,
If the purpose of such modification (or in fact any modification to the job system) is to put a stop on downwards pressure on rates, then only rates that are below the community average should get "warnings" of any kind.
Every job is different, the so called "community rates" are a big mixing bowl currently, there is no distinction for specialization, credentials, number of years of experience, etc. so the big grand average is not very meaningful. We know we don't want the rate to be below living wages, but upwards - the sky is the limit.
Your suggestion of "warning" when somebody is quoting higher does not serve a positive purpose, IMHO, as it may encourage quotes for specialized jobs, or quotes from highly qualified translators to be submitted at a lower rate than otherwise would have been. This would be counterproductive, IMHO.
Katalin ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 21:37
Spanish to English
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Samuel Murray wrote:
Warn translator if his rate is much higher/lower than community rate
Any business-person should be given enough freedom to shoot themselves in the foot if that's what they want to do.
And by doing that (i.e. shooting themselves in the foot), they leave more room for those of us who find this market swamped with people who have yet to learn the difference between 'price' and 'value'.
MediaMatrix
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:37
French to English
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| Good science... | Mar 30, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I think a similar thing should be done for translators, to help educate them about ultra low or unrealistically high rates, as follows:
I would discourage this just in the name of "good science": if you do this, then the "average rates" become a slightly pointless measure, because you have the circularity that you're deliberately influencing what you're measuring.
That said, my observation is that the average rates (and hence rates reported by translators) don't actually reflect what people are in practice offering to work for.
I think clients do need educating on what is a reasonable price to expect to pay for a good-quality translation, and I think some budding translators need to learn to charge enough money to be able to afford to develop their career and live a decent lifestyle (e.g. being able to afford to travel frequently to foreign countries isn't typically an optional nicety for a good translator). But I think there are other ways of promoting these messages than skewing the "reported rates" system.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 03:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Answer to opposer | Mar 30, 2010 |
mediamatrix wrote:
Any business-person should be given enough freedom to shoot themselves in the foot if that's what they want to do.
I accept that there must be cultures in the world where that sentiment isn't considered anti-social. We are talking about people's lives here. Finding jobs and earning money isn't a hobby or a game in which we should give as little help to newcomers as possible.
And by doing that ... they leave more room for those of us who find this market swamped with people who have yet to learn the difference between 'price' and 'value'.
People grow through experience and education. What you're saying is that we should throw out education, so that those of us who learnt from experience may retain the competitive advantage. I have no problem with competitive advantage, because it often stems from improvement, but if the advantage is maintained only because others struggle and fail, and not because we have improved ourselves over the years, then it is a bleak advantage to say the least.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 03:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | On good science | Mar 30, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
I would discourage this just in the name of "good science": if you do this, then the "average rates" become a slightly pointless measure, because you have the circularity that you're deliberately influencing what you're measuring.
1. Even reporting one's findings may be seen as influencing what you're measuring.
2. It is not necessarily bad science to measure things with a purpose in mind, especially if that purpose is to change that which you are measuring. If you measure the number of suicides per capita, or the number of obese people in a population, or the number of infections with a certain disease, then usually the reason why you are measuring it is because you want to change it.
That said, my observation is that the average rates (and hence rates reported by translators) don't actually reflect what people are in practice offering to work for.
and:
I think there are other ways of promoting these messages than skewing the "reported rates" system.
I would be happy to hear what other, more accurate way you can think of to determine what "normal" rates are, since the campaign against job posters specifying rates is based largely on the assumption that there is such a thing as a "normal" rate and that ProZ.com should figure out what it is. Taking average reported rates into account is a simple method, and although it is not exceptionally reliable, it is not wildly unreliable either. But... let's hear it: how would *you* suggest that ProZ.com determines what a normal rate is?
| | | | | Warn translator if his rate is much higher/lower than community | Mar 30, 2010 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
Samuel,
If the purpose of such modification (or in fact any modification to the job system) is to put a stop on downwards pressure on rates, then only rates that are below the community average should get "warnings" of any kind.
Every job is different, the so called "community rates" are a big mixing bowl currently, there is no distinction for specialization, credentials, number of years of experience, etc. so the big grand average is not very meaningful. We know we don't want the rate to be below living wages, but upwards - the sky is the limit.
Your suggestion of "warning" when somebody is quoting higher does not serve a positive purpose, IMHO, as it may encourage quotes for specialized jobs, or quotes from highly qualified translators to be submitted at a lower rate than otherwise would have been. This would be counterproductive, IMHO.
Katalin
I agree to this. As to market our services becomes each time more involved, precisely yesterday I was reading Al & Laura Ries marketing book The 22 immutable laws of branding. This is what they say at page 44:
To be successful in branding a "prestige" product or service, you need to do two things:
1) You need to make your product or service more expensive than the competition.
2) You need to fin a word code for prestige
Although this assertion may be somewhat exaggerated, I have no doubt that translation is a matter of personal prestige and that not accept immoral low rates is not the same as banning high tariffs. If the marketed product or services has more added value to the customer, this one not only can but should be more expensive.
Low prices in my humble opinion is synonymous of discredit. As translator, I think we should end this vicious circle without any kind of compunction. Admitting low rates is what led us to this point of translators discrediting.
Moreover, if there is not a real added value in translators product or services and we still sell our services more expensive than our competitors, the market well inmediately be aware of this and penalize us inmediately without getting the job.
[Editado a las 2010-03-30 08:06 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 03:37
French to German
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| An additional question... | Mar 30, 2010 |
is to know who gets the jobs posted on ProZ, or rather at which price/rate they are assigned.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Taking average reported rates into account is a simple method, and although it is not exceptionally reliable, it is not wildly unreliable either. But... let's hear it: how would *you* suggest that ProZ.com determines what a normal rate is?
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 03:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
And additional question is to know who gets the jobs posted on ProZ, or rather at which price/rate they are assigned.
It would certainly be interesting to gather this type of statistics, but it has nothing to do with my suggestion, and I think if you want ProZ.com to gather this type of data, you should submit a separate suggestion thread for it. I, for one, would be supportive of such a suggestion, if a practical way can be found to do it.
| | | | | only for low rates | Mar 30, 2010 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
Samuel,
If the purpose of such modification (or in fact any modification to the job system) is to put a stop on downwards pressure on rates, then only rates that are below the community average should get "warnings" of any kind.
Every job is different, the so called "community rates" are a big mixing bowl currently, there is no distinction for specialization, credentials, number of years of experience, etc. so the big grand average is not very meaningful. We know we don't want the rate to be below living wages, but upwards - the sky is the limit.
Your suggestion of "warning" when somebody is quoting higher does not serve a positive purpose, IMHO, as it may encourage quotes for specialized jobs, or quotes from highly qualified translators to be submitted at a lower rate than otherwise would have been. This would be counterproductive, IMHO.
Katalin
I totally agree with Katalin.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 03:37
French to German
+ ...
| Much higher rates = ? | Mar 30, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
2. When a translator enters rates into a jobs bid that are much lower or higher than the community rate, he should get a warning in red text on the bid preview page about it. He should be allowed to offer whatever rate he wants to, of course, but he should be warned about it nonetheless (regardless of the rate suggested by the jobs poster).
I also agree about the "too high rates" part of your suggestion, Samuel.
There are two things that should be avoided on sites such as ProZ: 1) underselling oneself and 2) over-estimating oneself.
I agree with Katalin, Pablo and Andrei that the sky's the limit. However, it is only the limit for few and not for the majority.
I would be ready to pay e.g. 40/100 € "per word" (to simplify) for a translation, but then I would need to know why... and the translator would have to offer unrivaled services and expertise. Clients are aware of that fact too, I assume.
But then again, colleagues charging such rates have entirely different goals... and probably do not make offers on any translation portal.
[Edited at 2010-03-30 11:01 GMT]
| | | | | Warn translator if his rate is much higher/lower than community rate | Mar 30, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
2. When a translator enters rates into a jobs bid that are much lower or higher than the community rate, he should get a warning in red text on the bid preview page about it. He should be allowed to offer whatever rate he wants to, of course, but he should be warned about it nonetheless (regardless of the rate suggested by the jobs poster).
I also agree about the "too high rates" part of your suggestion, Samuel. There are two things that should be avoided on sites such as ProZ: 1) underselling oneself and 2) over-estimating oneself. I agree with Katalin, Pablo and Andrei that the sky's the limit. However, it is only the limit for few and not for the majority. I would be ready to pay e.g. 40/100 € "per word" (to simplify) for a translation, but then I would need to know why... and the translator would have to offer unrivaled services and expertise. Clients are aware of that fact too, I assume. But then again, colleagues charging such rates have entirely different goals... and probably do not make offers on any translation portal. [Edited at 2010-03-30 11:01 GMT]
I do not agree that the sky is the limit. I believe, I stated that in exchange of high prices, translators should give an added value to his/her services and customers too. How to give this added value, is a matter of each one of us. I did not speak neither about "too high rates", but about "high rates" and stated that if the added value given by the translator does not correspond to the truth, it will be immediately punished by the market itself. Discrediting ourselves expands a lot quicker than prestige winning. From the point of view before, I do not see any need to establish a top price limit, as this will prevent good professionals to ask the right money for the given added value.
But, you're right about one thing: Translators who base their business on prestige (and ihmo prestige is all about translation...) probably does not make offers via ProZ, more than ocasionally. It is not possible to drive a Mercedes F700 the right way on a goat track...
[Editado a las 2010-03-30 11:50 GMT]
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Susana Valdez
Portugal
Local time: 02:37
English to Portuguese
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| warn translator | Mar 30, 2010 |
I agree.
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