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Serbo-Croat language
Thread poster: Srdjan Stepanovic
BUZOV
BUZOV  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 18:21
English to Croatian
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Supremacy + Money concentration in former Capital City exclusively .. Oct 22, 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language

It was later argued that this act was less of an agreement than a political document signed under political pressure, as many writers later asserted (e.g. the signers of the 1967 Declaration on the Status and Name of the Croatian Standard Language, with prominent Croatian intellectuals such as Miroslav Krleža).
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language

It was later argued that this act was less of an agreement than a political document signed under political pressure, as many writers later asserted (e.g. the signers of the 1967 Declaration on the Status and Name of the Croatian Standard Language, with prominent Croatian intellectuals such as Miroslav Krleža).
The Novi Sad agreement became the basis of language politics in the second Yugoslavia;

However, many Croats were uneasy, viewing the merging of languages as the attempted "Serbianisation" of their Croatian idiom with markedly Serbian words or phrases

===============================

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpskohrvatski_jezik

==================================

Therefore, just leave SH at ProZ ... it has never existed anyway ... except as a political/military/police oppresion from Belgrade with the purpose given in the title of this post...
And all of us know that fact very well ... yet, no one wants to admit it ... instead, so many of arguments and "arguments" - Why ?

Well, maybe those few people who are so eager about the "existance" of SH or HS will earn a dollar or two more ...
The Same Old Story !

[Edited at 2009-10-22 12:07 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 12:07 GMT]
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bergazy
bergazy  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 18:21
Croatian to Italian
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Translate only, please Oct 22, 2009

John Farebrother wrote:


I don't need a dictionary written by prominent linguists to tell me whether a word I use is English or not. Nor do I need an official language policy to tell me the value of my dialect of English in relation to other regional and sociolects, or whether it even exists.


Sure. But you have to use the official language of your target market. It is not legal to create the situation where some product description destined to Croatia,for instance, " rich in hydrocarbon compounds" is translated as "proizvod bogat jedinjenjima ugljovodonika". And that is the reason you cannot use Serbo-Croat or Serbian language and you certainly do need dictionary. Translator must forget Yugoslavia and its dialects.

[Edited at 2009-10-22 11:34 GMT]


 
Silvija_C
Silvija_C
Local time: 18:21
English to Croatian
+ ...
Rest my case :-) Oct 22, 2009



[Edited at 2009-10-22 12:33 GMT]


 
Ivana Kahle
Ivana Kahle  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:21
Member (2007)
German to Croatian
+ ...
No professional resources needed? Oct 22, 2009

[/quote]

I don't need a dictionary written by prominent linguists to tell me whether a word I use is English or not. Nor do I need an official language policy to tell me the value of my dialect of English in relation to other regional and sociolects, or whether it even exists. Language isn't the property of governments or academics, but of the people who speak it.


[Edited at 2009-10-22 11:27 GMT] [/quote]

It would be like suggesting that physicians don't n
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[/quote]

I don't need a dictionary written by prominent linguists to tell me whether a word I use is English or not. Nor do I need an official language policy to tell me the value of my dialect of English in relation to other regional and sociolects, or whether it even exists. Language isn't the property of governments or academics, but of the people who speak it.


[Edited at 2009-10-22 11:27 GMT] [/quote]

It would be like suggesting that physicians don't need Gray's Anatomy. Let them cut where they think they should. I wouldn't trust such a physician. We are not talking here about average users of language, we are talking about professionals. Aren’t we all professionals?
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Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 18:21
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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Linguistically vs. politically correct Oct 22, 2009

It seems to me this whole discussion revolves around what's politically correct vs. the basic linguistic common sense. Let me explain:

Many people here who made their points thus far are from Croatia or Serbia and use strict Croatian and Serbian language standards at all linguistic levels, and that's fine.

However, for example, people in Bosnia use a variant that could be described as some sort of the mixture of both, when it comes to phrasing, wording, terminology, sl
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It seems to me this whole discussion revolves around what's politically correct vs. the basic linguistic common sense. Let me explain:

Many people here who made their points thus far are from Croatia or Serbia and use strict Croatian and Serbian language standards at all linguistic levels, and that's fine.

However, for example, people in Bosnia use a variant that could be described as some sort of the mixture of both, when it comes to phrasing, wording, terminology, slang, word formation, etc etc.. Therefore, from the linguistic point of view, this mixture can be freely and absolutely labeled as " Serbo-Croatian", but it's not politically correct, because the political and administrative name of of this language is "Bosnian". When it comes to this dialectical mixture / variant, I know it will be inconceivable to the Serbian and Croatian speakers who have left their bitter comments on this topic and who obviously see things strictly from their own perspective. A little odd taking into account they are linguists and should be aware of linguistic mixtures in certain regions around them ( but you can only perceive them if you are not blinded with extralinguistic matters). This linguistic mixture has been created through cultural and linguistic ways, not political. Therefore, some people use it naturally and as a standard in their own region ( nothing to do with politics at all, you are just projecting). Now, calling those people "klingons", "sentimental romantics" etc, is a discrimination and a direct attack on linguistic and cultural freedom. People( masses) don't *choose* to speak a certain variant, the variant chooses them.

There are even regions where people speak a mixture of Ekavian and Iekavian and where it is a standard, for example some regions at the south of Serbia bordering with Montenegro. People in the RS have Cyrillic + Iekavian as an official standard. Etc, I could go on forever about the blendings on various linguistic levels, but my point is that the people who use them are not aliens, like it was nicely implied by some on here.

I have come to conclude that the *naming* and labeling appear to be a problem in the light of this topic, and some people have a particularly negative attitude toward certain names ( e.g. SC). You can change the name of the cake, but the flavour will still be the same.










[Edited at 2009-10-22 12:21 GMT]
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alz
alz  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 18:21
English to Croatian
+ ...
quod licet Iovi not licet bovi????? Oct 22, 2009

John Farebrother wrote:

I don't need a dictionary written by prominent linguists to tell me whether a word I use is English or not. Nor do I need an official language policy to tell me the value of my dialect of English in relation to other regional and sociolects, or whether it even exists. Language isn't the property of governments or academics, but of the people who speak it.


[Edited at 2009-10-22 11:27 GMT]


Sure, neither I do in case of Croatian. Nor I need an official policy to tell me the value of my mother tongue in relation to other regional languages.

But the prominent linguist who compiled the Oxford English Dictionary probably had their good reasons to add to a lot of words, idioms and expressions listed in it, the abbreviations BrE and AmE.

I do not belive that the Queen's English uses those labeled AmE, as I firmly belive that you, as British professional translator do not mix AmE and BrE labeled words (idioms, expressions etc) in your translations. Or am I wrong?

There is no linguisdtic question which is not a political question at the same time. For some languages more, less for the others less. This topic deals with the same problem as does (in a slightly different manner) the English language topic you can read here:
http://www.proz.com/topic/148820

Unfortunately some discutants here are using (abusing?) this topic to promote some old linguistic theories constructed in the last century in order to justify territorial aspirations of the official policy ("One language - one nation" etc.).

[Edited at 2009-10-22 14:58 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 19:03 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 19:20 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 19:27 GMT]


 
alz
alz  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 18:21
English to Croatian
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For the sake of historical truth (kinda off-topic) Oct 22, 2009

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:

Dialects spoken in Croatia before 1880 let's say, were extremely numerous. Rich Croatian burghers did not use any of the popular dialects, were uncapable of creating a 10 word phrase in Croatian popular language. Therefore, in Croatian parliament, Latin was official language.


The most popular works by Croatian renaissance authors like Marko Marulić (1450-1524), Petar Hektorović (1487-1572), Šiško Menčetić (1457-1527) or Marin Držić (1508-1567) were written and PRINTED in "popular" language. They would not be printed for sure if there was no audiance for them.

The most popular novels of the "father" of Croatian novel August Šenoa were all written before 1880:

The Latin language was introduced in Croatian parliament in 1102 when its representatives accepted by "Pacta conventa" Hungarian king Koloman Arpady as heire to the Croatian throne in form of personal union; thus he and his successors were crowned twice: separately in Hungary as Hungarian and again in Croatia as Croatian kings (Koloman I was nephew of the Hungarina king Ladislaus Arpady, the brother of the last Croatian king Petar Zvonimir's vidow Helena). The Latin was introduced as official political language not in order that the Croats could understand each other but in order that the King could understand the conclusions of Croatian parliament. Latin was introduced at the same time in Hungary and remained as such during the Habsburgs' period even in Austria, Boemia etc. As official language of the Croatian parliament Latin was abolished in 1847 (thus 3 decades before 1880).

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:

Upon invitation of J.J. Strossmayer, Croatian bishop, politician and cultural activist, started the introduction of shtokavski dialect as new standard language into Croatian territory, with the idea that the said dialect becomes a standardized language, due to the a.m. problems with a huge number of local dialects in Croatia. The period: '60-ies of 19. century. The Academy of Sciences took name of Yugoslav Academy of Sciences.

Shtokavski dialect was a dialect spoken by Serbs in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and H, and in all parts of Croatia inhabited with Serbian people.


Shtokavian was spoken by Croats of Slavonia, Bosna, Lika, Southern parts of Dalmatia too and before Strossmayer. Not only spoken but it was the dialect on which the most important works of Croatian baroque literture were written: Ivan Gundulić (1589-1638) in Dubrovnik, or Antun Matija Reljković (1732-1798) in Slavonia. Reljković's work was so popular among common people that it was published (printed) in several edition troughout the whole 18th century.

One of the proofs for this statment is the shtokavian Croatian spoken by Croats of Molise (Italy), a small enclave of Croatian who escaped in front of Otomans over Adriatic sea to Molise in Italy, around 1500. They conserved their language which is shtokavian Croatian with absolutely no word of Turkish origin, so it rapresents a valuable source today for studing archaic Croatain from the time before the Otoman invasions.

Strossmayer and others advocated standardisation in shtokavian direction for two reasons: 1. there already exited printed literary works on shtokavian Croatian of highest artistic value from 16th and 17th century (Gundulić); 2. to come closer to shtokavian Serbian following the romantic utopic idea of Panslavism and panslavic union "en vogue" among intellectuals of all Slavic European countries of that period.

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:
The period: '60-ies of 19. century. The Academy of Sciences took name of Yugoslav Academy of Sciences.


The Yugoslav Academy of Sience and Arts quoted here was founded on July 26th 1866 as "Academia Slavorum Meridionalium" (The Academy of South Slavs), always following the utopic idea of panslavism mentioned before. Because Latin as official language was already abolished in Croatia few years erlier the name was changed into "Južnoslavenska" (South Slavic"). It became "Jugoslavenska" (Yugoslav) much later.

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:
Therefore, standard Croatian language derived completely from Serbian, since shtokavski dialect was never spoken by local mixture of 10-15 peoples in Croatia in the 19. century,


Again, shtokavski was spoken by part of Croats several centuries before 19th century; the proof can be found in printed literaly works. The correct statment would be that Modern standard Croatian and serbian have a lot of common "genetical material"

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:
....with the exception of Serbs arrived into the border-line zone with Ottoman Bosnia, and now purged and expelled from Croatia, while new Croatian language purges its vocabulary of the potentially sounding Serbian words.
Within the purged words, stands also word "vagan", (I wish Serbs from Banija County took it with themselves on their trucks) alongside a natural and logical fact that today's dictionaries of any language cannot pretend to present all linguistic fundus, therefore word like "prge" does not find place in the dictionary in possession of one of our colleagues.



I personally knew what "vagan" means, but I know it in the form of "vaganj", with stressed second A, and only as pure dialectal word, not standard.

About "purging" I am not going to comment, because this would lead to completely political discussion.

My appologizes for turning completely off topic at the end of this threat

[Edited at 2009-10-22 19:27 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 20:18 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 21:14 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-22 21:42 GMT]

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[Edited at 2009-10-23 13:12 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-23 16:16 GMT]


 
John Farebrother
John Farebrother  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
French to English
+ ...
Technical terminology Oct 22, 2009

Ivana Kahle wrote:




It would be like suggesting that physicians don't need Gray's Anatomy. Let them cut where they think they should. I wouldn't trust such a physician. We are not talking here about average users of language, we are talking about professionals. Aren’t we all professionals?


You were not refering to technical terminology in your comment.


 
John Farebrother
John Farebrother  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
French to English
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The crux of the problem Oct 22, 2009

bergazy wrote:



Sure. But you have to use the official language of your target market.


You have to use language that meets your client's expectations/needs. What this discussion has shown is that in some cases that will be modern official Serbian or Croatian, and sometimes not. Sometimes it will be a dialect that can justifiably be called Serbo-Croat.


 
sofijana
sofijana  Identity Verified
Serbia
Local time: 18:21
English to Serbian
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I agree with Dragomir Oct 23, 2009

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:

Go a link further, and you'll find out ISO 639-3 with serbo-croat as macro language.

The point that asking or honouring requests for translations into serbo-croat is anti-professional, does not hold, because there will be some of those, not much. For example, an agency asks you for a translation into a standard croatian language, and tells you specifically that the neo-croat is not at all desired. This is not my provocation, but an example from my business in the position of "emigrated translator" like "bergazy" describes me and others.

The stressing point can be defined, acc. to me in: leaving HBS acc to ISO-639-3 (serbo-croatian) in the language pairs' combinations, besides serbian, croatian, bosnian and montenegrin, and novopazarian in case it sprouts out.



There is no need and we, as an individuals at Proz, have no "authority" to simply delete the language for which there is still a need on both sides (clients' and translators').

Sofijana


 
PeregrineFalcon
PeregrineFalcon
Croatia
Local time: 18:21
English to Croatian
find Serobo-Croatian here if you can Oct 23, 2009

link to the same standard Dragomir Kovačević is constantly offering to everyone, but it is newer list, not the old one he is constantly flashing people with, and there is no such thing as Serbo-Croatian or Serbo-Croati there. But you can, of course, find Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian without any difficulties. Or maybe my old eyes have failed to see it? Correct me if I am wrong, please.
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link to the same standard Dragomir Kovačević is constantly offering to everyone, but it is newer list, not the old one he is constantly flashing people with, and there is no such thing as Serbo-Croatian or Serbo-Croati there. But you can, of course, find Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian without any difficulties. Or maybe my old eyes have failed to see it? Correct me if I am wrong, please.

http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php



[Edited at 2009-10-23 11:25 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-23 11:28 GMT]
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Dragomir Kovacevic
Dragomir Kovacevic  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 18:21
Italian to Serbian
+ ...
Documentation for ISO 639 identifier: hbs Oct 23, 2009

Sivisokole,

You forgot to click onto this one:
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=hbs

I can't be held responsible for the damage inflicted to your eyes after seeing this.
The link you quote, speaks about ISO-639-2 three-ciphered symbols which should be accepted by linguists in daily practice.

The ISO 639-3 speaks about
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Sivisokole,

You forgot to click onto this one:
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=hbs

I can't be held responsible for the damage inflicted to your eyes after seeing this.
The link you quote, speaks about ISO-639-2 three-ciphered symbols which should be accepted by linguists in daily practice.

The ISO 639-3 speaks about macro-languages, where "hbs" is located. It is not "rubbish" (talk I mean, like a colleague introduced the term)

And, let us not to forget the crucial: here a discussion is being conducted regarding leaving or deleting the SC from the language pairs. Caretaking business of burying, that started here and on HR and SR forum previously, is so evidently misshaped. It is like burying ourselves, and more specifically, those colleagues who accept jobs in that pair. I DO NOT believe that those colleagues do not ask clarification about the final destination of the translation; the lack of this requirement is professionally absurd. But, do we have to anticipate and cut out the language pair. At least 3-4 jobs in En-SC combination appeared on this site since the moment this discussion began.

"Nanny dreamed what she liked".

PeregrineFalcon wrote:

link to the same standard Dragomir Kovačević is constantly offering to everyone, but it is newer list, not the old one he is constantly flashing people with, and there is no such thing as Serbo-Croatian or Serbo-Croati there. But you can, of course, find Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian without any difficulties. Or maybe my old eyes have failed to see it? Correct me if I am wrong, please.

http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php



[Edited at 2009-10-23 11:25 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-23 11:28 GMT]


[Edited at 2009-10-23 12:13 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-23 12:14 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-23 13:11 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-23 13:20 GMT]
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jokerman
jokerman
Germany
Local time: 18:21
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
now, you see... Oct 23, 2009

... if nobody speaks Serbo-Croatian any more, then who do you think is making all those entries into Wikipedia in that language?

http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia

I don't know how many are there but I assume that there are significantly more than just a few thousand. Also, I would not be surprized if there are more entries in Serbo-Croatian that in Bosnian or Croatian
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... if nobody speaks Serbo-Croatian any more, then who do you think is making all those entries into Wikipedia in that language?

http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia

I don't know how many are there but I assume that there are significantly more than just a few thousand. Also, I would not be surprized if there are more entries in Serbo-Croatian that in Bosnian or Croatian or Serbian.

The world is much more than one's own village.
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jokerman
jokerman
Germany
Local time: 18:21
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
a typical example of Serbo-Croatian... Oct 23, 2009

An excerpt from the page quoted in my previous post (http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia):

"Sav originalni materijal priložen Wikipediji je "Slobodan Sadržaj", definisan GNU Slobodnom Dokumentacionom Dozvolom, što znači da se može slobodno upotrebljavati, izmeniti, kopirati, i distribuirati<
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An excerpt from the page quoted in my previous post (http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia):

"Sav originalni materijal priložen Wikipediji je "Slobodan Sadržaj", definisan GNU Slobodnom Dokumentacionom Dozvolom, što znači da se može slobodno upotrebljavati, izmeniti, kopirati, i distribuirati, uz uslov da bilo koja kopija, modifikacija ili izmena ne sme stavljati dodatne restrikcije na sadržaj (tj. mora biti izdata pod istom dozvolom)."

'izmeniti' and 'uslov' and 'distribuirati' and 'mora biti': 4 terms and/or wordings, of which 2 nowadays are considered rather Croatian and another 2 nowadays are considered rather Serbian - all in one sentence!

And nobody bothers that they are mixed up and everybody understands perfectly, don't they?


[Bearbeitet am 2009-10-23 20:37 GMT]
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