| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Serbo-Croat language Thread poster: Srdjan Stepanovic
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jokerman
Germany
Local time: 06:50
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
Dubravka Hrastovec wrote:
jokerman, you are wrong: 'brzojav' is 'Telegramm' in German
yes, you are right Dubravka, I mixed that one up when writing my post.
and 'brzoglas' is not used in standard Croatian.
infact it is. Link: http://hr.wiktionary.org/wiki/brzoglas
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jokerman wrote: Dubravka Hrastovec wrote:
jokerman, you are wrong: 'brzojav' is 'Telegramm' in German
yes, you are right Dubravka, I mixed that one up when writing my post.
and 'brzoglas' is not used in standard Croatian.
infact it is. Link: http://hr.wiktionary.org/wiki/brzoglas
With due apologies to the English-speaking community and risking to be perceived as hair-splitting, I will copy an entry from the Croatian Encyclopaedic Dictionary (Hrvatski enciklopedijski rječnik, Novi Liber, 2002., 2004., sv. 2) in Croatian because you're wrong again; 'brzoglas' is definitely not a standard Croatian word.
Here it is:
"brzoglas m zast. neodom. neol. 1941. telefon // brzoglasiti (0, što), dv. (prez. brzoglasim, pril. sad. -seći, pril. pr. - ivši, gl. im. -ašenje) neol. 1941. telefonirati; brzoglasni prid. koji se odnosi na brzoglas"
Important abbreviations:
zast. = zastarjelo (outdated)
neodom. = neodomaćeno ('not rooted', unaccepted)
neol. = neologizam (neologism)
| | | | Silvija_C
Local time: 06:50
English to Croatian
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| Supporting the initiative | Oct 21, 2009 |
[Edited at 2009-10-21 14:38 GMT]
| | | | jokerman
Germany
Local time: 06:50
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
1. You can say either "brzojav" or "telefaks" or "faks" and I personally know many people who have been living all over the world for decades and they understand all variants.
"Brzoglas" is nowhere used today.
infact it is.
Can be easily seen and/or heard in reality and/or here: http://pitanja.gorila.hr/pitanje/brzoglas-ili-telefon
2. If a client doesn't want to pay for 2 different translations, that's a completely different story. Someone might suggest the client to pay for 1 translations into either language and place an order for editing into the other, which will be cheaper.
Agree. If a client needs a translation into Croatian, then he certainly should order a translation into Croatian and not into Serbo-Croat.
My point, however, was that the client explicitely requested a translation into a language that any immigrant form Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia will easily understand. We call that one Serbo-Croat (the term under which it is known in the world) or Croato-Serb (the term which refers to the same language and was widely used in Croatia for several past generations) and we use it as such. Therefore some clients _do_ need translations into Serbo-Croat.
Also, the above example was to correct bergazy's statement about the actual reality of the Serbo-Croat stating that:
bergazy wrote:
Conception of Serbo-Croat language can be your private fantasy, your very own dreamland but it has nothing to do with the actual situation.
Let's behave like professionals
...
3. Who on earth speaks Serbo-Croatian?
I do. Most of the people from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia that I know do.
Serbo-Croatian is/was technically Serbian, and Croato-Serbian is/was technically Croatian.
No. Technically, while there was a language called Serbo-Croat or Croato-Serbian, Serbian and Croatian were not considered separate languages but rather dialects of the Serbo-Croat or Croato-Serbian. This has changed though and today they are two separate languages, of course.
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bonafide1313 
Croatia
Local time: 06:50
Member (2010)
English to Croatian
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| @ Srdjan Stepanovic | Oct 21, 2009 |
Congratulations on the proposal! Direct, simple and clear... a word is enough for a wise man.
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Unfortunately, you don't know anything about Croatian language. Anyone who thinks that brzoglas and zrakomlat ("chopper" - slang expression for helicopter), are part of standard Croatian language doesn't have Croatian at all. No matter how they used to call it, it has always been different form Serbian. Considerably different. Some sentences and expressions in Croatian could make some Serbs ROFL, and vice versa, some sentences and expressions in Serbian would make some Croatians hilarious. And t... See more Unfortunately, you don't know anything about Croatian language. Anyone who thinks that brzoglas and zrakomlat ("chopper" - slang expression for helicopter), are part of standard Croatian language doesn't have Croatian at all. No matter how they used to call it, it has always been different form Serbian. Considerably different. Some sentences and expressions in Croatian could make some Serbs ROFL, and vice versa, some sentences and expressions in Serbian would make some Croatians hilarious. And there's nothing new about it, only in the old times we were used to hear Serbian (and Serbs Croatian) more often, on a daily basis, so it was normal to us, but we used to laugh anyway. And because both of those languages (and third, Bosnian too) were omnipresent, it was easier to understand another language than nowadays.
Forcing people to read manuals and other literature in similar, but not their language and trying to convince them that they do not know their native language is offensive, disrespectful, uncivilized. If you don't respect some person's language, you don't respect that person. A lot of people feel offended when someone does such thing. And those who claim that Serbian and Croatian are not real languages, that they are merely some dialects of Serbo-Croatian are doing just that.
[Edited at 2009-10-21 17:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-10-21 17:17 GMT]
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| | | | | Who speaks Serbo-Croatian | Oct 21, 2009 |
3. Who on earth speaks Serbo-Croatian?
[/quote]
I do. Most of the people from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia that I know do.
I live in Croatia and i don't know anyone who speaks Serbo-Croatian, only Croatian. I also know some Serbs from Serbia and I have asked them "Do you speak Serbo-Croatian or maybe know anyone who does?". Their answer was that they don't speak that language neither they know anyone who does. You can also see it by the reaction of all Serbs... See more 3. Who on earth speaks Serbo-Croatian?
[/quote]
I do. Most of the people from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia that I know do.
I live in Croatia and i don't know anyone who speaks Serbo-Croatian, only Croatian. I also know some Serbs from Serbia and I have asked them "Do you speak Serbo-Croatian or maybe know anyone who does?". Their answer was that they don't speak that language neither they know anyone who does. You can also see it by the reaction of all Serbs and Croats here (with the exception of two persons).
The same goes for people who live abroad (in Germany, Australia, Austria, USA) and I have family there.
But, if someone tells them that they cannot chose and that their ONLY choice is Serbo-Croatian (which could be the case if people who have the same opinion like you work on the key positions) then they have to accept what they have offered them, meaning that they can only accept nonexistent Serbo-Croat. And then someone can use it as a proof that they speak that language.
[Edited at 2009-10-21 18:14 GMT]
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Ivana Kahle wrote:
Let me give you just one example (from the phrase book part):
Serbian: Iz tuđe njive i vagan prge zauvar.
Croatian: Jabuka iz tuđeg vrta slađa je od vlastite.
I have never heard the word "vagan" in my whole life.
I have never heard the word "prge" in my whole life.
I have never heard the word "zauvar" in my whole life.
To the Serbo-Croatian (or vice versa) speaking community:
How on earth would you make this phrase sound Serbo-Croatian and acceptable for both speakers of Serbian and Croatian?
I'm a Serbian and I have never heard the sentence you quoted in my life. And would have no idea what it means if you didn't provide the translation. Same as most of other Serbians I guess. It's certainly not anything people would use in an everyday conversation... or any other conversation.
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jokerman
Germany
Local time: 06:50
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
| back to the topic... | Oct 21, 2009 |
allright, let's go back to the topic anyway.
The question was whether Serbo-Croat should be deleted from the list of the languages offered at proz.com.
My suggestion is - as might have become apparent already - that it should be kept there as is now.
Here are some Reasons:
1. Serbo-Croat is still widely spoken all around the world - except in its initial countries (Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro)
2. There are still clients ... See more allright, let's go back to the topic anyway.
The question was whether Serbo-Croat should be deleted from the list of the languages offered at proz.com.
My suggestion is - as might have become apparent already - that it should be kept there as is now.
Here are some Reasons:
1. Serbo-Croat is still widely spoken all around the world - except in its initial countries (Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro)
2. There are still clients who need translations into these languages (see the example in my previous post, which is just one of several available)
3. When searching for a bosnian term in kudoz-glossaries, for example, and it is not available there, the chance is very high that you will find the correct term in the croatian and/or serbian glossary if it is available there - or at least one that will be extremely useful to you since all you need to do is adapt it slightly, and that's what each of us easily can do.
The same applies for any combination of the three languages.
Therefore, including ALL entries for bosnian AND croatian AND serbian into ONE glossary (call it Serbo-Croat or BCS or alternatively Bubbely-Hubbely-Dubbely, whichever you prefer) would be a very useful feature for any professional translator here at proz.com.
4. There are still source documents written in that language.
5. It's a very nice language after all and still holds a great reputation from its prime time all over the world - as a language of a respected, peaceful and open-minded country. And it is a symbol of brotherhood and unity of different nations - which is a nice idea really, don't you think?
please feel free to add more reasons, of curse ▲ Collapse
| | | | | According to jokerman | Oct 21, 2009 |
Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian are ONLY spoken in their countries where they are official languages, and citizens of other countries don't think that they are real languages and that they should exist. English and German are also spoken only in countries where they are official languages. So, we should do the same with those languages: people from UK, USA, Canada and Australia should do what the most of world thinks they should do: call their languages English, American and Australian, and people... See more Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian are ONLY spoken in their countries where they are official languages, and citizens of other countries don't think that they are real languages and that they should exist. English and German are also spoken only in countries where they are official languages. So, we should do the same with those languages: people from UK, USA, Canada and Australia should do what the most of world thinks they should do: call their languages English, American and Australian, and people from Germany, Austria and Switzerland should accept that German language spoken in those countries should be renamed into German, Austrian and Swiss.
Also if other people think that very similar languages Chech and Slovak are the same languge, why should we ask Chechs and Slovaks anything? We should call that language Chechoslovakian language.
And what about Swedo-Norwegian? It is a nice language with two interesting dialects.
If we look for Croatian word in Serbian or Bosnian glossaries we might find the same word. It might even have the same meaning, but it can mean something entirely different too (vilica - fork in Croatian and jaw in Serbian and Bosnian or any of numerous other similar examples), or you might find a word that most of Croats won't understand at all. The same goes for all other possible combinations. I have put some of examples in one of my posts here.
Anything translated in Serbo-Croatian cannot be useful in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia if you don't make some changes for each country (change it into Bosnian, Serbian or Croatian language).
Documents written in Serbo-Croatian do not exist since they always were (just like they are now) written in the three languages, but there was a political directive to use the name Serbo-Croatian in Serbia and Croato-Serbian in Croatia for those languages. So why would we use the name which was only a false facade that used to hide real truth?
Clients who ask for translation into Serbo-Croatian don't know anything about those languages, just like we don't know about differences between Hindi, Gujarati, Sanskrit and Bengali, but we would ask people from India about it and do just what they say. We wouldn't tell them that it is one language that should be called Indian, of course.
I won't even comment the sentence that says something about peaceful open-minded country, because it would require pages and pages to tell the real truth about it.
So, bravo, Srdjan Stepanovic. You have my vote! Stepanovic for president:).
I rest my case now. Further discussion would be futile. I will, anyway give my vote against Serbo-Croatian if someone organizes the poll.
[Edited at 2009-10-21 21:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Back on topic | Oct 21, 2009 |
I do understand that our views on this obviously delicate linguistic issue are largely determined by our clients. If your clients are Ausländer or Personen mit Migrationshintergrund coming or originating from ex-Yugoslavia, or anyone else having to do with those groups, your Serbo-Croatian translation might do perfectly well.
I have a question for you. If you were asked to provide tra... See more I do understand that our views on this obviously delicate linguistic issue are largely determined by our clients. If your clients are Ausländer or Personen mit Migrationshintergrund coming or originating from ex-Yugoslavia, or anyone else having to do with those groups, your Serbo-Croatian translation might do perfectly well.
I have a question for you. If you were asked to provide translations of some German text into both Serbo-Croatian and Serbian, what would be the differences between these two translations?
Provided that I accept the same assignment, do you think that your translation into Serbo-Croatian and mine would match in terms of vocabulary, grammar, syntax etc.?
I am sure that neither I nor many other colleagues from both Serbia and Croatia are able to provide such a translation any longer. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jokerman
Germany
Local time: 06:50
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
Dubravka Hrastovec wrote:
I do understand that our views on this obviously delicate linguistic issue are largely determined by our clients. If your clients are Ausländer or Personen mit Migrationshintergrund coming or originating from ex-Yugoslavia, or anyone else having to do with those groups, your Serbo-Croatian translation might do perfectly well.
Yes, I perfectly agree with you on that one.
Maybe a little bit off-topic, but still relevant for this forum I think: The number of Ausländer or Personen mit Migrationshintergrund coming or originating for the former Yugoslavia and living all over the world has been rather significant for the past few years. Many of them speak Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian rather than the pure variety of one of the languages which are in use in their respective countries today. I think that it shows that this language is still reality - and that has been my point most of the time in this forum.
I have a question for you. If you were asked to provide translations of some German text into both Serbo-Croatian and Serbian, what would be the differences between these two translations?
There would be significant differences. Naturally, I would use the Croato-Serbian variety rather than the Serbo-Croatian, so I would write the translation in latin letters, use the Croatian dialect ('-ije' vs. '-e') and certainly use some words that are more common in Croatia than in Serbia (but which are easily understandable for both croatian and serbian native speakers - just an example: the German 'Woche', I would translate as 'tjedan' rather than 'nedelja' or 'sedmica').
Provided that I accept the same assignment, do you think that your translation into Serbo-Croatian and mine would match in terms of vocabulary, grammar, syntax etc.?
If we both translated a text into Serbo-Croatian (and, of course, provided that we both have an outstanding command of that language), I assume that our translations would match rather well. We both probably attended very similar lessons of Croato-Serbian language and literature in the school and have most likely read the same books for half of our lives, so I assume that our Serbo-Croatian would be quite the same.
I am sure that neither I nor many other colleagues from both Serbia and Croatia are able to provide such a translation any longer.
That's right, I suppose. And that's exactly my point: Most coleagues from Croatia and Serbia don't speak Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian any more - things have changed on the Balkans, haven't they?
Yet, I do speak the language in question. And as I've been arguing, many boyos all around the world still do.
However, I only translate into Serbo-Croatian (as is obvious from my profile) - not into Croatian nor into Serbian (because, honesty, I don't feel too comfortable with neither of them in their modern form). And although most of my jobs are English->German, I am quite busy with German Serbo-Croatian as well - so obviousely there's still a significant demand for this lingua.
[Bearbeitet am 2009-10-21 23:45 GMT]
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Ivana Kahle
Germany
Local time: 06:50
Member (2007)
German to Croatian
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| Relevant resources | Oct 22, 2009 |
Good morning everyone!
@ Dragomir
Let's imagine we are Germans. Would you say - this word isn't German because it's not in Garzanti, or in Larousse or in Webster? I suppose most of the native speakers of Germans would say - this word isn't German because it's not in Duden/Wahrig/Langenscheidt.
Let's imagine we are native speakers of English - this word isn't English not because it's not in Duden, Langenscheidt, Školska knjiga, or in any other imaginable bilingual... See more Good morning everyone!
@ Dragomir
Let's imagine we are Germans. Would you say - this word isn't German because it's not in Garzanti, or in Larousse or in Webster? I suppose most of the native speakers of Germans would say - this word isn't German because it's not in Duden/Wahrig/Langenscheidt.
Let's imagine we are native speakers of English - this word isn't English not because it's not in Duden, Langenscheidt, Školska knjiga, or in any other imaginable bilingual dictionary - no, it's not English because it's not in Webster.
The most relevant resource for each language should be the monolingual dictionary of that language, written by the most prominent linguists of that very language, don't you think so?
@ jokerman
On one hand you have the Croatian Encyclopaedic Dictionary.
On the other hand you have the "gorila" (gorilla in English, Gorilla auf Deutsch) website.
As a serious linguist, which resource would you choose as more relevant? I'm sure all of us have already found hillarious stuff on the Internet - that's why professionals usually prefer reliable resources, don't they?
@ Miroslav
I chose indeed an awkward example, just to prove your point:
"Well, people speak Portuguese both in Portugal and Brazil, but I don't think it's always appropriate to freely mix the differences that surely exist."
That's exactly the point. Let's not freely mix two (or more) languages, just to make our customers happy – the fact that they would like to save a cent or two is linguistically irrelevant.
Have a nice day all of you ▲ Collapse
| | | | | power to the people | Oct 22, 2009 |
Ivana Kahle wrote:
Let's imagine we are native speakers of English - this word isn't English not because it's not in Duden, Langenscheidt, Školska knjiga, or in any other imaginable bilingual dictionary - no, it's not English because it's not in Webster.
The most relevant resource for each language should be the monolingual dictionary of that language, written by the most prominent linguists of that very language, don't you think so?
I don't need a dictionary written by prominent linguists to tell me whether a word I use is English or not. Nor do I need an official language policy to tell me the value of my dialect of English in relation to other regional and sociolects, or whether it even exists. Language isn't the property of governments or academics, but of the people who speak it.
[Edited at 2009-10-22 11:27 GMT]
| | | | | novoštokavski dialect => Serbo-Croatian => language ? | Oct 22, 2009 |
First of all, let me explain my personal proverb that the clumsy compound of SH-HS, to me sounds like this:
Serbo-Croat for me technically speaking, means Croatian blended with a bit of Serbian. A bad service for Serbian, isn't it?
In practice, as people of good will know well, there's no place for humorous comments like the one I delivered above, for the sake of heating the enthusiasm of some of the colleagues.
Nope. The compound SC was forged with good ... See more First of all, let me explain my personal proverb that the clumsy compound of SH-HS, to me sounds like this:
Serbo-Croat for me technically speaking, means Croatian blended with a bit of Serbian. A bad service for Serbian, isn't it?
In practice, as people of good will know well, there's no place for humorous comments like the one I delivered above, for the sake of heating the enthusiasm of some of the colleagues.
Nope. The compound SC was forged with good intentions.
Serbo-Croat roots its origin in a long prepared project of national, state liberation of small nations in Balkans, together with the south-slavic unification project (Yugoslavian project of unification). Yugoslavian project was basically a Croatian project, it did not originate in Reign of Serbia, in 19. century at least.
Dialects spoken in Croatia before 1880 let's say, were extremely numerous. Rich Croatian burghers did not use any of the popular dialects, were uncapable of creating a 10 word phrase in Croatian popular language. Therefore, in Croatian parliament, Latin was official language.
The case with Serbia, was a bit more clear, at least regarding political situation, since Serbia in the '40-'50-es of 19. century was close to its national goal of liberation from Ottoman empire, and declared independence in the '60-ies of the 19. century. As for the language, burgher people in Serbia used also a queer mixture of a few popular words with great parts of Russian Church language, old Russian, even quite a lot of German words. We have a great deal of ridiculous examples in comedies about the spoken language in parts of Habsburg monarchy inhabited with Serbs. Written language was also a mess.
All the linguistic chaos in Croatia and Serbia of those times has to be comprehended with political situation of those people through many centuries.
Upon invitation of J.J. Strossmayer, Croatian bishop, politician and cultural activist, started the introduction of shtokavski dialect as new standard language into Croatian territory, with the idea that the said dialect becomes a standardized language, due to the a.m. problems with a huge number of local dialects in Croatia. The period: '60-ies of 19. century. The Academy of Sciences took name of Yugoslav Academy of Sciences.
Shtokavski dialect was a dialect spoken by Serbs in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and H, and in all parts of Croatia inhabited with Serbian people.
The said language and grammar reforms were gladly accepted in Croatia, since Croatian people could not stand further more the Magyar yoke and desired any kind of distinction from their reign, while in Serbia it had a strong opposition that however, ceased through decades, and by 1880, the novo-shtokavski dialect was officially accepted in Croatia and Serbia, and other regions as well.
Therefore, standard Croatian language derived completely from Serbian, since shtokavski dialect was never spoken by local mixture of 10-15 peoples in Croatia in the 19. century, with the exception of Serbs arrived into the border-line zone with Ottoman Bosnia, and now purged and expelled from Croatia, while new Croatian language purges its vocabulary of the potentially sounding Serbian words.
Within the purged words, stands also word "vagan", (I wish Serbs from Banija County took it with themselves on their trucks) alongside a natural and logical fact that today's dictionaries of any language cannot pretend to present all linguistic fundus, therefore word like "prge" does not find place in the dictionary in possession of one of our colleagues.
Afterwards, further efforts were accomplished for creation of a standard language for people living in the new Yugoslavian state after 1918.
The name of the language is known: Serbo-Croatian/Croato-Serbian.
The events post-1991, are well known. Now EU is becoming something what SFRY was already before - was "Europe", giving a good example of unity and of a successful country.
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