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Serbo-Croat language
Thread poster: Srdjan Stepanovic
Dubravka Hrastovec
Dubravka Hrastovec  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 05:53
English to Croatian
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In memoriam
Well done, Srdjan! Oct 20, 2009

A great post, Ivana! I really didn't know that.

I fully agree with Srdjan's initiative. It's not only that the Serbo-Croatian language does not exist any more; I would say that Serbo-Croatian as a unique language actually never existed. In the former Yugoslavia (which disintegrated in 1991) i.e. in the then Socialist Republic of Croatia, that artificial language was called Croato-Serbian. That’s what I was taught a
... See more
A great post, Ivana! I really didn't know that.

I fully agree with Srdjan's initiative. It's not only that the Serbo-Croatian language does not exist any more; I would say that Serbo-Croatian as a unique language actually never existed. In the former Yugoslavia (which disintegrated in 1991) i.e. in the then Socialist Republic of Croatia, that artificial language was called Croato-Serbian. That’s what I was taught at school. In reality, officially there were two different ‘variants’ of the allegedly same language, which also had different names in the two Socialist Republics! In fact, it was always Serbian in Serbia and Croatian in Croatia.

I am aware that all this might be very confusing for our clients abroad but it still happens very often that we have to ask our clients in which country a translation will be used in order to be able to decide whether we can accept the assignment or not. A few days ago I was asked to make a German-Croatian translation to be used in Belgrade! I politely declined and recommended a colleague whose mother tongue is Serbian.
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Dragomir Kovacevic
Dragomir Kovacevic  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 05:53
Italian to Serbian
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ISO 639-3 Oct 20, 2009

Go a link further, and you'll find out ISO 639-3 with serbo-croat as macro language.

The point that asking or honouring requests for translations into serbo-croat is anti-professional, does not hold, because there will be some of those, not much. For example, an agency asks you for a translation into a standard croatian language, and tells you specifically that the neo-croat is not at all desired. This is not my provocation, but an example from my business in the position of "emigra
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Go a link further, and you'll find out ISO 639-3 with serbo-croat as macro language.

The point that asking or honouring requests for translations into serbo-croat is anti-professional, does not hold, because there will be some of those, not much. For example, an agency asks you for a translation into a standard croatian language, and tells you specifically that the neo-croat is not at all desired. This is not my provocation, but an example from my business in the position of "emigrated translator" like "bergazy" describes me and others.

The stressing point can be defined, acc. to me in: leaving HBS acc to ISO-639-3 (serbo-croatian) in the language pairs' combinations, besides serbian, croatian, bosnian and montenegrin, and novopazarian in case it sprouts out.

Professionally speaking, nobody is in trouble with the proper language.
When emigrated translators perish in 20-30 years, the mice can flourish, awaken occasionally with a discussion like this one, or with the final outcome.

Okay?
Dragomir

Ivana Kahle wrote:

bergazy wrote:


Let's behave like professionals


Excellent point, bergazy.
Translators above all people should behave like professionals in linguistic issues.
Shouldn't we stick to standards?
Please have a look at ISO 639-2 standard:

http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php

hrv = Croatian
srp = Serbian

No sign of scr (which used to be Serbo-Croatian-Roman) and of scc (which used to be Serbo-Croatian-Cyrillic) any more.

The change was made upon request of the National and University Library of Zagreb, the National Library of Serbia, the Croatian Standards Institute and the Institute for Standardization of Serbia. The decision of the standardization authority has become effective on June 28, 2008.
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Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 05:53
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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Yes Oct 20, 2009

Yes, I agree, let's behave like professionals and drop the idea that because of the differences such as "labor vs. labour", we will fail to send the message across, ruin the integrity of the document and affect the business. I think that's plain exaggeration, like many of the other points made here. It's not even semantically supported to begin with. As professionals, we should be able to distinguish semantics from style and dialects.

What about regional dialects in Croatia or Serb
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Yes, I agree, let's behave like professionals and drop the idea that because of the differences such as "labor vs. labour", we will fail to send the message across, ruin the integrity of the document and affect the business. I think that's plain exaggeration, like many of the other points made here. It's not even semantically supported to begin with. As professionals, we should be able to distinguish semantics from style and dialects.

What about regional dialects in Croatia or Serbia that differ from each other on various linguistic levels the same, if not more, than Croatian and Serbian do?

For example, people in Dalmatia speak Ikavian and say you present them a marketing copy(translation) in standard Croatian, will that affect the business in Dalmatia?

IMHO, this initiative is not well-grounded, particularly because everyone has an option to choose their language pairs, so why not just skip the SC pair if you don't want it on your list? And ProZ probably had its reasons to list this language, which happened at the time when all republics and languages were officially separated.

[Edited at 2009-10-20 13:37 GMT]
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bergazy
bergazy  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 05:53
Croatian to Italian
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Resistence is futile Oct 20, 2009

In Constitutions of Serbia,Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia
Serbocroatian is not mentioned as the official language. The usage of the unofficial languages is not permited or considered legal in documentation for imported goods of any kind. Authorities really do not care about "Macrolanguage" or similar nonsense.
Local dialects can't be used for creation of safety data sheets, technical specifications, transportration of dangerous substances or similar.
Have you ever seen explos
... See more
In Constitutions of Serbia,Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia
Serbocroatian is not mentioned as the official language. The usage of the unofficial languages is not permited or considered legal in documentation for imported goods of any kind. Authorities really do not care about "Macrolanguage" or similar nonsense.
Local dialects can't be used for creation of safety data sheets, technical specifications, transportration of dangerous substances or similar.
Have you ever seen explosive gas detector manual translated in dialect of Vranje or one of 26 italian languages/dialects? I did not.
Your question "For example, people in Dalmatia speak Ikavian and say you present them a marketing copy(translation) in standard Croatian, will that affect the business in Dalmatia?" is incredible. Ikavian is well accepted as literary language (in works of M.Smoje) but it is not possible to use it for user's manuals, tenders, or verdicts. As you say, people in Dalmatia use Ikavian dialect but not for the official purpose. If you present them a marketing copy (translation) in Serbo-Croat, what do you think, will that affect the business in Dalmatia?



I am curious: what is neo-croatian?

[Edited at 2009-10-20 15:07 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-20 15:40 GMT]
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jokerman
jokerman
Germany
Local time: 05:53
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
... Oct 20, 2009

bergazy wrote:


Conception of Serbo-Croat language can be your private fantasy, your very own dreamland but it has nothing to do with the actual situation.

Let's behave like professionals

[Edited at 2009-10-19 11:23 GMT]


Acctually, the reality is somewhat more komplex than that: At least in Germany where I live and work (and also in some other european countries as I have been told), many clients will prefer ordering 1 translation into Serbo-Croat than ordering (and paying for) 4 separate translations into Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrenian and Serbian.

Just as a most recent example: The city of Berlin has recently conducted a detailed survey among its foreign citizens - including Serbs and Croats (beside Turks, Italians and a few other nationalities). My office was managing the project for the client who explicitely prefered _one_ version for all immigrants from Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia - for two reasons:

1. Many of the people from the former Yugoslavia who have been living here for 20 years or more would not even understand certain questions if they were translated into the modern variety of their respective native language (I know that, for example, "brzojav" is a telefax and "brzoglas" is a telephone" because I am a professional translator and I need to know it for my businness, but most of the survey target audience would certainly not have a clue what that is), and

2. He (the client) considered it ridicolous to pay for 4 separate translations while 1 is more than sufficient for his needs.

Btw, the most prominent boyo who recently was insisting on everything being interpreted to him into 'pure Serbian' instead of Serbo-Croat was a certain serbian 'celebrity' currently being trialed at a well-known international court. After a very short consultation, the court told him to get his acts together and get real.


In brief, while I absolutely agree that many clients need translations into either Croatian or Serbian, the Serbo-Croat is still alive and widely spoken all over the world.

[Bearbeitet am 2009-10-20 18:08 GMT]

[Bearbeitet am 2009-10-20 18:22 GMT]

[Bearbeitet am 2009-10-20 18:35 GMT]


 
Ivana Kahle
Ivana Kahle  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:53
Member (2007)
German to Croatian
+ ...
Neo-Croatian? Oct 20, 2009

bergazy wrote:

I am curious: what is neo-croatian


I'm curious too. Is there also a neo-German and neo-English, because there are some neo-words in those languages? Aren't all the languages becoming "neo" day after day? I hope nobody suggests that languages should remain petrified at some point. Let them live and develop themselves.


 
Katarina Delic
Katarina Delic  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:53
Member (2008)
English to Serbian
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KudoZ, Kudoz, KudoZ... Oct 20, 2009

I personally don't care about Serbo-Croat being present on Proz or somewhere else or not. I just don't like the way it affects Kudoz and I think that part should be discussed much more on this topic. That is a very practical problem we, the translators, have regarding Serbo-Croat.

 
Dubravka Hrastovec
Dubravka Hrastovec  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 05:53
English to Croatian
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In memoriam
@ jokerman Oct 20, 2009

"I know that, for example, "brzojav" is a telefax and "brzoglas" is a telephone" because I am a professional translator and I need to know it for my businness, but most of the survey target audience would certainly not have a clue what that is)"

jokerman, you are wrong: 'brzojav' is 'Telegramm' in German and 'brzoglas' is not used in standard Croatian.


 
alz
alz  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 05:53
English to Croatian
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there had always been 2 standards Oct 20, 2009

Even during flourishing years of communist Yugoslavia there had always been 2 standards of the so called Serbo-Croatian

1. the eastern standard or srpskohrvatski (Serbo-Croatian), commonly named srpski (Serbian)
2. the western standard or hrvatskosrpski (Croato-Serbian), commonly called hrvatski (Croatian).

It was not allowed to mix those standards, at least mot in the written form. Mixing them was always considered as bad style or lack of education.

... See more
Even during flourishing years of communist Yugoslavia there had always been 2 standards of the so called Serbo-Croatian

1. the eastern standard or srpskohrvatski (Serbo-Croatian), commonly named srpski (Serbian)
2. the western standard or hrvatskosrpski (Croato-Serbian), commonly called hrvatski (Croatian).

It was not allowed to mix those standards, at least mot in the written form. Mixing them was always considered as bad style or lack of education.

Translating into SC in that period meant always translating into one of those two standards, and it was always clearly reported. Into Serbo-Croatian meant always into nowdays Serbian, and into Croato-Serbian into nowdays Croatian.

During the 8 years of my elementary education in the "late" Yugoslavia, the name of the national language taught in Croatian schools changed 4 times: from hrvatskosrpski (Croatoserbian) to hrvatski ili srpski (Croatian or Serbian) to hrvatski (Croatian) and back to hrvatskosrpski (Croatoserbian). All that from mid 60ies to early 70ies, thus it is clear that this had more to do with the politics then with the linguistics.
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PeregrineFalcon
PeregrineFalcon
Croatia
Local time: 05:53
English to Croatian
Definitely, Serbo-Croatian has never really existed at all Oct 20, 2009

I totally support ideas of Srdjan, Miroslav, Bergazy, Ana Irena, Katarina, Ivana, Dubravka and Alz that it's existence on Proz is constantly confusing outsourcers who do not speak any of our languages. I am old enough (52) to understand Serbian and Bosnian almost as well as I understand Croatian, but I would never dare to translate into those languages, because I am not sure that I could do a good job.
Those languages are so similar that their similarity could lead you astray and make your
... See more
I totally support ideas of Srdjan, Miroslav, Bergazy, Ana Irena, Katarina, Ivana, Dubravka and Alz that it's existence on Proz is constantly confusing outsourcers who do not speak any of our languages. I am old enough (52) to understand Serbian and Bosnian almost as well as I understand Croatian, but I would never dare to translate into those languages, because I am not sure that I could do a good job.
Those languages are so similar that their similarity could lead you astray and make your translations look funny, tragically wrong or even dangerous.

Here are some differences (but there's a lot of them).

English; Croatian; Serbian
fork; vilica; viljuška
jaw; čeljust; vilica
thread; navoj; loza
vine; loza; ?
vinegar; ocat; sirće
oil; ulje; zejtin
screwdriver; odvijač; odvrtka
nut; matica; navrtanj
coil; zavojnica, svitak; kalem
clutch; spojka; kvačilo
seat; sjedalo; sedište
head office; sjedište; ?
sucking-pig, piglet; odojak; prasence, prase
infant, nursing child; dojenče; odojče
bore, auger; svrdlo; burgija
butter; maslac; buter
landing gear; podvozje; stajni trap
vice; škrip, škripac; mengele
captain; satnik; kapetan
major; bojnik; major
compass; kompas; busola
late; kasno; dockan and kasno (Croats do not understand word dockan)
penal, criminal; kazneni; krivični
recent; nedavni; skorašnji, nedavni
near, soon; skorašnji, skori; ?
soon; skoro, uskoro; uskoro?
recently; nedavno; skoro, nedavno
cream (from milk); vrhnje; pavlaka
air; zrak; vazduh
air pressure; tlak zraka; pritisak vazduha
blood pressure; krvni tlak: krvni pritisak
bottle is under pressure; boca je pod tlakom; boca je pod pritiskom
man is under pressure; čovjek je pod pritiskom; čovek je pod pritiskom
pressure of a finger; pritisak prsta; pritisak prsta
man and woman; muškarac i žena; čovek i žena



The list of such words is so long that it is not possible to write it here. And you can find most of so-called „new Croatian or neo-Croatian words" (almost all of them) in old dictionaries from those times when we were forced to call our language Serbo-Croatian.


[Edited at 2009-10-20 23:31 GMT]

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[Edited at 2009-10-21 00:10 GMT]

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[Edited at 2009-10-21 00:25 GMT]
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Ivana Kahle
Ivana Kahle  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:53
Member (2007)
German to Croatian
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Dictionary of differences between Serbian and Croatian Oct 21, 2009

PeregrineFalcon wrote:

The list of such words is so long that it is not possible to write it here. And you can find most of so-called „new Croatian or neo-Croatian words" (almost all of them) in old dictionaries from those times when we were forced to call our language Serbo-Croatian.




It would be indeed a very long list.
There is a Dictionary of differences between Serbian and Croatian (Vladimir Brodnjak, Školske novine, Zagreb, 1991) and it contains more than 630 pages.

Let me give you just one example (from the phrase book part):
Serbian: Iz tuđe njive i vagan prge zauvar.
Croatian: Jabuka iz tuđeg vrta slađa je od vlastite.
I have never heard the word "vagan" in my whole life.
I have never heard the word "prge" in my whole life.
I have never heard the word "zauvar" in my whole life.

To the Serbo-Croatian (or vice versa) speaking community:
How on earth would you make this phrase sound Serbo-Croatian and acceptable for both speakers of Serbian and Croatian?


 
Dragomir Kovacevic
Dragomir Kovacevic  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 05:53
Italian to Serbian
+ ...
tiny courtyards Oct 21, 2009

Ivana Kahle wrote:

Let me give you just one example (from the phrase book part):
Serbian: Iz tuđe njive i vagan prge zauvar.
Croatian: Jabuka iz tuđeg vrta slađa je od vlastite.
I have never heard the word "vagan" in my whole life.
I have never heard the word "prge" in my whole life.
I have never heard the word "zauvar" in my whole life.

To the Serbo-Croatian (or vice versa) speaking community:
How on earth would you make this phrase sound Serbo-Croatian and acceptable for both speakers of Serbian and Croatian?


In case you've taken a look into some of the most standard croatian-italian***, or ..>english dictionaries, you might have found "vagan". As for "prge" it is an ancient and rustic croato-serbian word. Therefore, the phrase in serbian "Iz tuđe njive i vagan prge zauvar", you quote,

means in pure croatian: "Iz tuđe njive i vagan prge zauvar".

croatian-italian*** - my edition of HR-IT dictionary is the most recent one, i.e. the one that "Skolska knjiga" - Zagreb kept selling these years, edition 1995; I purchased it 2 years ago. In it, the word "vagan" can be found. As for "prge" you will find it in localisms in Dalmatia, various rustic meals.

Regards, Dragomir.

[Edited at 2009-10-21 10:39 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-10-21 10:56 GMT]


 
Ivana Kahle
Ivana Kahle  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:53
Member (2007)
German to Croatian
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Croatian Encyclopaedic Dictionary Oct 21, 2009

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:


In case you've taken a look into some of the most standard croatia-italian, or ..>english dictionaries, you might have found "vagan". As for "prge" it is an ancient and rustic croato-serbian word. Therefore, the phrase in serbian, you quote, means in pure croatian:

Iz tuđe njive i vagan prge zauvar.
In case you have not heard, it means that your courtyard does not extend that much.

Regards, Dragomir.


Sorry, no sign of "vagan" in Hrvatski enciklopedijski rječnik, Novi Liber, Zagreb, 2003.
Sorry, no sign of "prge" in Hrvatski enciklopedijski rječnik, Novi Liber, Zagreb, 2003.

This dictionary (Croatian Encyclopaedic Dictionary) is the largest dictionary of Croatian containing 110.000 words, but not "vagan" or "prge".


 
PeregrineFalcon
PeregrineFalcon
Croatia
Local time: 05:53
English to Croatian
vagan, prge and zauvar are not Croatian words Oct 21, 2009

I know what is vagan, because I used to read a lot of Bosnian and Serbian books, but, in spite of that, I have never heard word prga or zauvar. It was possible to find some words from Serbian or Bosnian language in some Croatian dictionaries from the old times. If the author of the dictionary was from parts of Croatia near Bosnian or Serbian border, then she or he might have used it in the local speech (and he wanted to add some words from his village to his work), or someone liked some words be... See more
I know what is vagan, because I used to read a lot of Bosnian and Serbian books, but, in spite of that, I have never heard word prga or zauvar. It was possible to find some words from Serbian or Bosnian language in some Croatian dictionaries from the old times. If the author of the dictionary was from parts of Croatia near Bosnian or Serbian border, then she or he might have used it in the local speech (and he wanted to add some words from his village to his work), or someone liked some words because she/he found them exotic, or he/she wanted to suck up to the regime, or his/her knowledge of standard Croatian was not as good as his/her knowledge of Italian or English, or whatever language we are talking about. Reasons could be different. You can hear people on the TV or radio who make horrible mistakes. They often do not know the meaning of some "difficult words", like difference between govoriti (to talk generally, one way communication), pričati (to tell some tale, something coherent, also one way communication) and razgovarati (to have a conversation. two way communication), or gdje, kamo and kuda (three ways of saying where, but not interchangeable, not synonyms, where gdje denotes some place where you are right know, where you were, or where you will be; kamo means where to (you are going, heading), and kuda asks about the route (in Serbian and Bosnian they mostly use only gde or gdje instead of the other two words, but in Croatian, it is a big mistake to do so), but there's no reason why whe should take their illiteracy as standard.
Also, all dictionaries of Croatian language are just what their title says: dictionaries of Croatian language, but they are not dictionaries of standard Croatian language. They have to incorporate all words that could be found in any corner of Croatia, so there are German, Italian, Jiddish, Hungarian, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian words in them, and also all possible words from all three Croatian dialects.

To know the language you have to live here and "catch" its spirit and to learn, learn and learn.

[Edited at 2009-10-21 08:53 GMT]

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